Grief, Community, and Miracles with Kathryn Cunningham | Ep 44

In February, 2023, a darling little 8 year old boy in my community fell off the slide at school and passed away as a result of those injuries. I wondered how I might help, and wished I had more insights on what to do. I attended Dallin's funeral and was blown away at the powerful sermon on miracles that his beloved mama, Kathryn Cunningham, shared with all those in that packed church.

I am honored to share this sacred episode with you, where we talk about grief, Dallin, community, and miracles. You'll receive insights on how to show up for people in your circle who are grieving, and be inspired to look at your own life through the lens of miracles.

Kathryn's book, Walking Through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, written about those first days after the accident, is available now for preorder. at https://amzn.to/49RjHRs.

Kathryn's book launch and celebration will be held May 17th from 7-9 PM in Stansbury Park, UT. You can Venmo Kathryn directly and pick up a book at that event.

Find out more by connecting with Kathryn at:

https://kathryncunninghamauthor.com https://www.instagram.com/kathryncunninghamauthor/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathryncunninghamauthor

About Kathryn:

Kathryn Cunningham was always the kid with a story to tell. As a mother, as a teacher, as a friend, she is always at her best when there’s a story involved. She has gathered her stories and honed her skills as a French major at BYU, as a proselyting missionary in Germany, as a military wife in Korea and Germany, as a member of the writing team for the refugee advocacy organization TSOS (Their Story is Our Story), and as the CEO of her growing family as they explored the world together. The list goes on! She never dreamed that one day she’d have to tell the story of how she lost her son, but she’s grateful for the experiences, the mentors, and the gospel truths that have prepared her to do it.

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If you're a woman who appreciates connecting with other women in community with vulnerability and compassion, please join us in the Solidarity Sister! Facebook group at:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/716800349946338/

The Solidarity Sister! Book Club has begun and runs through the end of May. We're reading Brené Brown's Gifts of Imperfection over a period of 15 weeks, and connecting via Zoom and Marco Polo. Find more info in the FB group. Sign up at https://forms.gle/ZHpfhd8hwCpw6NL2A

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IG: @solidaritysister.kristinwilson 

Transcript

Kathryn: 0:00

Inevitably, you are going to say the wrong thing. You're going to hurt somebody's feelings. You're going to screw up. Like, you cannot let that stop you. from just trying, right? So yeah, just say, I love you. Say, I'm thinking about you. Say, I'm praying for you. Say, I'm so sorry this happened, but also accept that you might be the one that says the wrong thing this time. And we'll learn from it and we'll all talk about it we'll just keep having this conversation. Don't let it stop you. Do your best and try and forgive yourself for screwing it up and then try, try again to be better next time, right?, it's okay. We will forgive you. We will all forgive each other.

Kristin: 0:48

Hello and welcome to another episode of Solidarity Sister with Kristin Wilson. Today's episode is such a treat, my friend. It is beautiful. It is vulnerable. It is going to give you some real insights on what to do if you have a friend who has lost a child. That being said, it is also the kind of episode that you might emotionally really connect with. If you are a mom who has, like Kathryn, experienced child loss, this episode might be especially heavy for you, or it might be uplifting. There's no way of knowing. Grief is so different for each person. Kathryn is so articulate that you may find that she perfectly expresses the feelings of your own heart. You might feel like her voice represents you. And, you might feel like it doesn't. It might, instead, give you another insight to what other moms might experience when going through this. Grief is truly so personal. My favorite quote about grief goes something along the lines of that grief really represents all that love we have for someone that no longer has a place to go. And people learn to live with that grief in different ways. So whatever your story is, if it's different, that's okay. When, and if you're ready, I encourage you to share your own story so that those of us around you can better understand what your experience is like and know how we can best support you. My heart goes out to you. I cried during this interview when we did it originally. I also cried again as I was editing this interview. Some of what Kathryn Cunningham has to share with us is just. So beautiful, but also it just opens your heart right up to feeling. It's an opportunity to mourn with those that mourn. So I just want you to be prepared. You might want to have some puffs plus Kleenex, whatever your favorite tissue is kind of around just in case, especially if you know you are a person who is prone to experiencing your emotions in that way. And also stay tuned to the end because I'm going to give you a little bit of definition work for just a few of the things that Kathryn talks about as it relates to our church. Be prepared to 1. Really have your heart be opened wide. There's so much to feel here. 2. To feel like you have some really tangible insights on how you might better support friends through child loss. And three, be prepared to be inspired to seek the miracles in your own life. Kathryn's story is definitely one of heartbreak, but it is also one of joy and triumph and great faith. Her example to me has been really powerful and is helping me to seek the miracles in my own life. Through my own difficult road. I admire Kathryn so much. I've learned so much from her. This is really going to be a treat. I can't wait for you to learn from her too.

4:27

Outro Music

Kristin: 4:32

Hello and welcome to another episode of Solidarity Sister. And I am really both excited and also I just have these flutters in my heart to be able to have this conversation today. I feel like this is going to be a really sacred space to talk with my friend, Kathryn Cunningham, who is Their family experienced a great tragedy last year that really rocked our whole community and most particularly their family and Kathryn has written a book about it. And so I am honored to actually be able to host her to be able to talk about her book about her experiences. And I think this will really benefit our listeners who don't know what to do to best help their friends. Because I know I. heard about this and I didn't know what to do either and I wish I would have shown up better and I'm hoping that this will help us to know when these kinds of things happen in our communities how to do that better in the future. So Kathryn, tell me, how are you doing today for real?

Kathryn: 5:40

This is a question I have thought about a lot because people all want to know, you know, like when they know something terrible has happened to you, they always ask that question, but, and it's not because they don't know what else to ask. Like, they really want to know, like, how are you doing? They're concerned about you. And I have come to the conclusion that. I am terrible all the time and I kind of will be for the rest of my life. I'll always be like not okay, but also I'm doing well, you know, like the rest of us are, we're healthy, we have good goals, we're having good times, we're getting through each day. So we are happy and we are well and we are well taken care of, but we're also like awful.

Kristin: 6:28

I love that because I think it is so important for us to identify that we can hold more than one feeling at a time. That there is a part of this grief that is always going to be there. every day the rest of your life, but also that there can be these joyful moments. One of the things for any of our listeners, Kathryn's family does the cutest videos for the 12 days of Christmas. And her girls participate in the youth choir that my husband and I run, and they were so excited to share those with us and tell us where to go look them up. And they're fantastic. And so I see, I'm sure it was harder this past Christmas to do those videos without Dallin. I'm sure. For sure. But that. You were still creating those moments with your girls that they can still be excited and have these fun memories But also that part of feeling terrible is there that they they exist together they can both be true and real at the same

Kathryn: 7:23

time. Yeah, definitely

Kristin: 7:25

So what are you listening to lately in terms of do you listen to music podcasts audiobooks? What is in your ear?

Kathryn: 7:33

When I listen to books, I'll usually listen to something from Deseret Bookshelf. I'm trying to listen to all of President Nelson's autobiography, like the His kind of hundred years. What has life taught me in hundred years book? And that's been great. And so if I listen to a book, it's probably going to be something from Deseret bookshelf from a general authority or someone like that. But also not long before Dallin died, I started making a playlist of songs that made me happy. And All of a sudden when he died, I needed that playlist. It was so interesting. I've never, I'm not like a playlist maker. I'm not like, Ooh, yeah, I need to compile these songs that I love. I love music, but I haven't really been the one. My husband is usually the one like looking for new music and Ooh, have you heard this and isn't this a neat thing? And it was such a random. thing that I started to do. And so that if I'm listening to music, like if I'm driving or if I'm doing the dishes or when I'm stretching after I exercise, like that's the music I'll play is those special songs that I've found that just make me happy. And they're a big variety. Some of them are like. feel good ones. Some of them are ones from when I was younger, like a teenager in college. And some of them are, are really sad, like ones that give you that, that ache and kind of help me connect with the sadness that I'm feeling all the time, but they all make me happy in some kind of unique way that I find extremely helpful.

Kristin: 9:03

I love that you were prepared with this playlist. I think so often, and we're both women of faith, but one of the things I tell my kids is that when you're someone who's trying to live a life of faith, we're not perfect, but we're trying to do the right thing, the best of our ability, day by day. That God doesn't remove difficult things from our lives, but we can be in tune enough to be prepared in small, very, like, God is in the details, these little ways that, hey, there's this nudging, you might need a happy playlist. Why don't you start this happy playlist? Does it solve it? Does it bring Dallin back? No, like it's still hard, but there's these little tender mercies that flow in to just support and hold us up through those hard things. And I love that you're still holding on to that playlist and you're probably still adding to it. Yeah. Yeah. You find things that, you know, are resonating. So we talk a lot in this podcast about community and. I know in your situation, the whole community knew right away, right? Like, that's not how it usually goes when people kind of have a big trial that comes in their lives. Tell me a little bit about how community, played a role. How community helped, how community, did it make it worse? Like, what did people do that was the most helpful? What do you wish people would have known?

Kathryn: 10:30

Okay, so yeah, it is so interesting when because Dallin in the way he died is that he fell off a slide at recess at school and then they rushed into the hospital and they got his heart beating again, but he really wasn't. He really wasn't alive, you know, so it was the next day that he officially passed away but so, like, kids were there like kids saw him fall and in that sense. It was sort of an extra burden, that community, that we all experienced this as a community. Like in the hospital, I was communicating with the principal and with teachers and, and everything. And I was worried about those kids, you know, like the first day after he fell, they made get well cards. And by the end of the first day, it was becoming clear that he was probably not gonna make it. And I, I messaged the principal. I'm like, you have to deliver those get well cards because they can't have those cards sitting in their classes and in their hands that they wrote for a dead kid, right? Like it's, that's so damaging. And, I was pretty concerned, like I substituted in those classes all year, the year before. And I, I knew those kids and I, I was very concerned about how they were experiencing it. So in some ways, it was a little bit of a burden, but then it was also kind of a, a relief as well to not be so consumed with what I was going through that I could think about somebody else and be concerned about somebody else and have just something else to think about. And as the time went on and people reached out, people that I knew, people that I didn't know, like, it really It meant something to me. I know not everybody is this way, but everybody who said just like, I'm so sorry, and we're praying for you. And I was so sad to read about this. It helped me a lot. Just every little word, every little expression of gratitude, every 2 dollars that somebody posted on the GoFundMe with it, you know, like it was all like, knowing that we were going through it together. Really, especially in the beginning, really helped me to feel not so alone in this thing that was So unbelievable to me. One thing that I appreciated more than I can even say was that the day so Dallin died in the evening of February 7th and I sent a message out to the principal and to my church leaders asking if I could please have 24 hours of no contact. Just Because my phone would not stop ringing, right? Like, cause people wanted to help. People want to help. And I said, I, I need 24 hours. I just need 24 hours where the phone is. Silent or I don't have to answer a message. I don't have to answer a call. I just, and it was dead, like immediately it went silent. Nobody called, like even the people who brought dinner over that night, like they just brought dinner, they didn't call ahead. They just, they just showed up and with the food and stayed as they didn't stay. Like they just, everyone really respected that request that I made. And I appreciated it so much. Just having that one day. It gave me the kind of rejuvenation I needed to be able to, like, get up the day after and start taking care of all the terrible business that there is to take care of when somebody dies. I

Kristin: 14:06

love that you were able to articulate that and to ask for that space. I mean, I can't even imagine. The thing is, is millions of kids go to school every day. and play on the playground. Like in your wildest imagination as a mom, you might sometimes consider that it's possible you'll lose a child before adulthood, but what comes to your mind is not a playground accident. It's not falling off the slide. And that is so important. That must just be have been so difficult to wrap your mind around. Yeah. Like

Kathryn: 14:36

I couldn't believe it at first. Right. Like you can't, like, you just can't believe it. I got the call and I was like, they say he's unresponsive, but like that can't be, that can't be actually what's going on. Right. Like, yeah,

Kristin: 14:49

I'm sure I would have felt the same way because you're like, this can't be real this and all these other kids in the playground and I can see that like how So many of those things that happened for us are really like, they're dual edged, you know, again, it's, it's a blessing that all the people were there to be supportive, but I can see how it would feel like a burden to worry about the other kids on the playground. Yeah. Witness that. And from, I didn't really ever know Dallin. I know your girls. I love your girls. But Dallin wasn't quite old enough for the choir and that was like the place where I've really connected with your kids. All the feedback I've heard has been so positive that he was always such like just a really nice little kid, that he was a happy little kid, that he was a funny little kid, like that he brought a lot of joy everywhere he went. And that he, you know, is missed. Do you have any favorite memories about Dallin or anything that you just really love when you think about him? Where, where's the joy for you in remembering him?

Kathryn: 15:54

Gosh, that's actually kind of a hard question, right? Cause he's, he's everywhere. We, Tim and I were actually, gosh, we were in the temple yesterday. And we were sitting just in that place where you sit and just feeling all the places I can feel close to Dallin, like the temple is where I feel closest. To him in the celestial room. And it's always hard. It's nice to go and feel close to him. But then when it's time to leave, it just feels so unfair, right? Like, how, how can I leave now? Like, I think they could just let us stay for like a week or two. Cause that's really what I want. But I was just sitting there and I told my husband, like, I just, I just want Dallin to come sit in my lap and read him a book, you know, like that's. Just those kind of memories, just those everyday memories, just, he always wanted to sit with us and sometimes I wanted some space and now I wish that every time I'd let him sit with me, just sit on my lap and read him a book and watch him be kind of a jerk to his sisters the way little kids are, tell me some stupid joke that he thought was so funny, he thought he was So funny. And he was a funny kid, but like no kid is as funny as they think they are. Tell me a joke and wait for me to like explode with laughter. Cause he was convinced he was just so funny. I don't know. Every time he met someone, it would take an extra, like, five minutes to get, just get through that introduction, because he would, like, drop to the floor and put both his head, both his feet behind his head and, like, crawl around on the floor the way he used to do. He thought he was so clever. And, I don't know, just all those things, those everyday things that That's also, like, the really, the really hard part is that, like, there's not just one thing where you're like, oh, man, it would be nice if Dallin were here. It's just everything, right? Like, we were a family. And now he's just not here, and it's, yeah, that is, it's just so hard, like, it's, it's not one thing, it's not one time, it's, it's every moment, you know, like, getting ready in the morning, oh, like, nobody's in elementary school, I would drive by the junior high that they're building, and I had hoped so much that it would be done in time for Dallin to go there, because then everybody could walk to school, and it's gonna be done in time, but now he's not here, it doesn't matter anymore. gah, every happy memory is so sad. Like we were talking about before, like every happy memory is so sad. At the same time, it's, it's really hard. It's like, we've just gotten through all the holidays and the new year. And then February was the one year anniversary of everything. And just. Really, like, got the feeling like my heart is not big enough for everything I'm required to feel now. Just when I would pray, just like, God, my father, make my heart big enough because I just, like, I can't hold it all. But yeah, like, Tim found a video the other day of just some Christmas Eve When we were trying to put Dallin to bed and he was so excited and we're singing him a song and giving him hugs and whatever. And we thought we like, we got to the end of the song and one last hug. And then the last thing on the video is he goes, mom could tell like, Oh, this is going to be a while. Just, yeah, just every moment like that just makes me so, so happy to remember that we had it. And so, so sad that, that we won't have those for. Really long time.

Kristin: 19:47

I can that. I appreciate you sharing that with me. I think part of why I started this podcast is honestly, now I'm going to tear up, but we had these two tragedies in this community last year where back to back we lost Dallin as a community and Jayden and my daughter was friends with Jayden and I attended those two funerals back to back and I felt this helplessness. Like, how do I show up better for these families? And it's not really your job to teach me, right? I do believe and I, I interviewed someone earlier on an earlier episode who had lost a daughter to cancer. And we talked a little bit about the circles of grief and that this idea that you should be not comforting anyone because you're the center of the grief, your girls, right? Like maybe your girls, you're the mom, but like. You shouldn't be comforting outwards. You should always turn to the person who's one degree away for comfort, kind of a thing. Or further degrees away. So you shouldn't be comforting the community. We should be comforting you. And I do believe that. Because it isn't your job to heal everyone else. It is your job to heal yourself and within your family. And then for everyone to kind of lean in. You know, the closer people are. The less requirement they have to worry about anyone but themselves. And as I'm coming from the outside where I know your girls pretty well, you know, relatively well, at least from our weekly interactions and I love them and they're just so fun and Rose is obsessed with your youngest daughter I she actually tells people they're best friends. So I knew that, but you know, but. Looking where I knew I was kind of on the outside, but not feeling like I knew how. How do I show up better? What do I

21:44

do differently?

Kristin: 21:46

And I think the thing that I'm learning is part of it is just holding space. To say, tell me about Dallin. I want to know, like making that space. And there is a place for the meals and the GoFundMes and the things like that. And I'm sure that those were all helpful and appreciated, but sometimes it's just having space to say, it's okay to be terrible. And it's okay to also be grateful at the same time. And have it be wonderful and awful and all, you know, all the things, you know, is there anything else that you think that we can be doing better? How can we better support you?

Kathryn: 22:23

I think what you said is so important. Not feeling awkward about talking about the person because I think in the past people have thought like oh, it will be painful for them to talk about it Like even if they were comfortable talking about the person They were worried that oh, that's gonna make them sad. Like we're sad all the time anyway, right? Like there's not gonna be anything we can avoid talking about that's not gonna not gonna make me sad Like I'm so aware always that he's gone right? I'm gonna be sad about it. It's just Like we, we shouldn't, we need to stop being afraid to be sad and accept that it's just part of this life and it's part of becoming like God of our task of becoming like God's feel that sadness and not be afraid of it. So yeah, like giving permission to say their name, right. And to talk about them, to have them still be a part of our lives. Like that is a huge, huge gift, right? Like to Just tell stories about him without it being a such a big deal. Like, no, he's a part of my family. Like, let's just tell a story about him because I thought of the story about him or yeah, like talk about him. Like he's just one more of my kids. Cause he is one more of my kids. I have a thing that I, my dad is a doctor. He's a pediatrician and he treats kids that have severe disabilities and severe medical conditions. So he's quite familiar with the experience of his patients passing away and one of his mom's one of his patients moms. He asked, he was meeting for the first time and said, how many kids do you have? And she said, I have four kids and three are living. And he said, Oh, I really like that. And I have borrowed that from her, but like that's when people I'm meeting people for the first time now, that's what I'm going to say. And I think that's going to be sort of my part of like. You have permission to talk about my kid and I would love your permission also to talk about my kid. We'll just talk about him like he's a part of our family because he is. So that is incredibly useful and like that space you're talking about is like so, so helpful and healing. But also Especially someone like you, like you're a part of my community, but you are a little bit more peripheral because we're not next door neighbors, and I don't run into you at school events and things like that, but you guys being a part of helping my girls? Just continue to have lives and experiences that is enormously helpful, like their leaders at church, their friends at school, just anybody that helps them feel like, like life is still something I can enjoy and my life is going to go forward and I don't have to feel guilty about that. That's what we're meant for. That's what we're meant to be doing. Like anybody who is a part of that is. It's doing a tremendous service for me because there is really only so much I can, I can handle right now, like even normal things that I used to do. My youngest has ADHD. My oldest has just been diagnosed with autism and like they need a lot of help, but I can't, I can't give it to them all the time, you know, like I'm their piano teacher and we haven't had regular lessons in forever. I'm just dropping the ball all over the place and just the people who, who give them support and are a part of their lives moving forward. It just, it is. So helpful and just lifts this burden, knowing that even in parenting, even in motherhood, I'm not by myself, like you're there reminding them that music is something that will help them, that will enrich their lives and they're going to, they're gonna need that. They're musical kids. Music will be a part of their journey and of their healing when things start to hit them down the road that they didn't expect. You know, when these feelings come back up and they realize, Oh my gosh, like my brother dying was never going to leave me. It's going to come back and come back and come back and be a part of me. Like they're going to need that music. They're going to need. music to heal them and to teach them and to give them a safe place to experience all the emotions they're going to feel. And you're part of reinforcing that. And I thank you for your service and your sacrifice. It, it means so much to me and anybody who does that, anybody who is even just a part of somebody else's life. You know, if even it's not the parent, like just, even if you don't feel like you're ministering to that person specifically, like just being a part of their life or their kid's life or whatever, like it is helpful. I will tell you one thing that was not helpful. And I hope nobody's feelings get hurt. There were a couple of people who came to me when Dallin was still in the hospital They both had kids that they had brought with them and I was trying to gently prepare them for the fact that this was really bad, that he might not get better, like that they need. And I was thinking specifically, like, you've got to get your kids ready. They're here. You've brought them. They need to be ready for really bad news. And they said, no, I know he's going to get better. I can feel it. You just have to believe. Jesus will save him. I just know that Jesus is going to save him. And that was not helpful because they didn't know, like I appreciate, and they were trying to be helpful. Like, and I have no bad feelings towards these people. And it's good to have faith. And it's good to have faith in Jesus and Jesus will save us all right. Like that is the eternal truth and the ultimate story. But when I'm telling you, Things are bad. I don't have the energy to argue with you about it or to explain my motivation or whatever you telling me that I'm crazy is not helpful. Jesus is going to save him. Well, you don't actually know that, right? Like, you don't know that you're not in there with the doctors. You didn't see like, I just need you to believe me for right now. Like, could you please believe me? And then like, Prepare your kids for the fact that like, they might not get the news that they want to hear. Like, please don't, like, it was so exhausting. Just, and it only happen a couple of times. And then again, like everybody gets through and that might've just been their way of getting through it, but it wasn't helpful to me. What I needed was. For them to believe me, like, don't tell me I'm crazy and hysterical, like, listen to what I'm saying and take it, take whatever you're going to take from it. So, that was something that was, that was, in creating, we're talking about community, like, people who are grieving, people who are going through hard things, like, They don't need you to make predictions for them because we don't know like bad stuff happens, but they do need you to be there and to love them and to stop telling them that they're hysterical and crazy.

Kristin: 29:37

I can see how that would not be helpful. And you know, and it could have been well intentioned.

Kathryn: 29:43

Oh, it definitely was, but both of these people are close to my family, they love my family, they love my kids. They were trying to strengthen me and, like, help me get through it. Like, they were 100 percent trying to help. But I appreciate you

Kristin: 29:56

sharing that because that's part of what we're here for is learning, like what didn't help not to like bad mouth anyone, but to be able to say, can we learn from this and we learn from this. And so when these kinds of things happen in the future, because inevitably. All of these life experiences, it might not be the exact same thing, but a similar situation comes up that we can show up better because we've just learned how to do it better. Cause like, no one teaches you these things, do you know what I mean? Like where is like, I mean, yeah, they try and do like second step in school and my kids love to sing the empathy song. Cause I think it's funny, but like, you know, like, To really be able to know how is the best way, what is the best way for us to show up for each other. And I think I'm finding it's just having these conversations. I learned so much about how to do it better next time.

Kathryn: 30:51

Well, and I was actually talking to some of the young women at church about this. We had a whole lesson about dying and whatever. And I, one of the things I felt really strongly that I should say was that, like, when you have someone near you go through something and you want to reach out, but you don't know what to do, like, just accept from the outset that you're going to do something wrong. Inevitably, you are going to say the wrong thing. You're going to hurt somebody's feelings. You're going to screw up. Like, you cannot let that stop you. from just trying, right? So yeah, just say, I love you. Say, I'm thinking about you. Say, I'm praying for you. Say, I'm so sorry this happened, but also accept that you might be the one that says the wrong thing this time. And we'll learn from it and we'll all talk about it we'll just keep having this conversation. Don't let it stop you. Do your best and try and forgive yourself for screwing it up and then try, try again to be better next time, right?, it's okay. We will forgive you. We will all forgive each other. I don't hold anything against those ladies who were trying to make me feel better. I don't hold anything against anybody who said the wrong thing. I have had very few experiences with people saying insensitive things. Actually, I've been incredibly, incredibly lucky. Everyone has been so sensitive and kind and helpful, right? Like doing things that are actually helpful, like relieving my burdens and helping my kids and, and just helping us get through like the practical daily necessities of things. But Just like, just try it. Like, don't let your fears keep you from trying, right? Like it's okay. Show up in the way that you can and accept that you will screw it up and forgive yourself and learn and move on. Like we all will, we're all doing it.

Kristin: 32:41

I love that. I think that's so encouraging. And I think that that's better than just being silent. I think that's better than saying nothing and pretending it didn't happen or avoiding the person or not, you know, showing up. If you're showing up in a way that this isn't about to get the tea and to like, have, you know, whatever, but if you're showing up with love for a family. You're showing up with a heart that is in the right place. Even if you say the wrong thing, it's going to be okay. And they're going to recognize that you're showing up, that you're trying, you know, that I love, I love that you're kind of giving permission to people. And I think one thing that I really have appreciated learning in this conversation is the value of supporting the other children. in a family with child loss that almost one of the best things that we could do is to show up for the other siblings because it does help carry the burdens of the mom who the fact that you haven't done piano lessons and we I mean like that could just happen to me without losing a child I think that's normal mom life I just want to like you know like I drop the balls all the time I do like I think that is normal mom life but When people do reach out and help support the other children. That just must be more helpful than a lot of other things. And your girls, you're right, they will always have music. They are very talented musically. And if I get the timing of something wrong, Abigail will always tell me how it was, which I appreciate because I sight read most of the time as the accompanist. I should not, I should practice. I don't think about it. I choose the music and then I'll show up and I'll be shocked that it changed keys. And now we're in like several flats or. And we're like playing, I'm playing it while they're singing it. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, why did I not see this coming? I picked the song and then I'll get the rhythm wrong. And Abigail will be like, right here, measure 45. And I'll be like, you are right. You are right. Thank you for that. So I love it. And then meanwhile, Rose will come and sit by Margaret and they're hanging out and they're all like, you know, it it's fun. It's fun to have them. And I noticed, I wondered the week that Dallin died, if they would come to choir. And they did.

Kathryn: 35:02

Yeah, I told them all, like, you don't have to go to anything. You have a good couple of weeks where you don't have to do anything you don't feel like you want to do, and they wanted to. And I think that's part of, like, helping the siblings, right? Like, some, some kids, when they, Experience this kind of thing will need some tenderness, right? They'll have anxiety that they need helping finding their way through. They'll need like some kind of kid gloves and other kids. Like, I think, especially initially my kids needed just to be normal. Right. They just, they wanted to do those, those normal things. They wanted to sing with the choir. They, Margaret went back to church the first week. Like she just, she just wanted to be there. She just wanted to do those normal things. They want to be with their friends. Like kids aren't meant to feel sad all the time. They can't do it. So yeah. And, and that's another thing, like with, especially with kids, I feel like to kind of be observant. Right? Like let them sort of guide the script, how you're going to handle it. If they are very anxious, if they're have suddenly like worries, if they're suddenly very angry, like you're going to handle it differently from the kids who like really just need things to be normal for a little while.

Kristin: 36:18

And kudos to you as the mom for recognizing what your kids needed and giving them the space to kind of figure it out in which way worked for them. I mean, as I see them, they appear happy and healthy and. They are doing well, and I'm sure they still miss Dallin and I'm sure that's still part of their every day, but they are doing well, so doing a good job. Mama.

Kathryn: 36:45

Thanks. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. I think it might be one of those things that comes down the road, but we'll just, you know, we'll just keep doing them. We'll just keep watching each other and trying to be there for each other and, and deal with the things as they come.

Kristin: 37:00

But I think the fact that you are willing to make space for yourself to be sad and to be happy. You are modeling that for them and that creates a safety for them because really when they don't feel allowed to be sad, or they don't feel allowed to be happy, either one, because it can go either way, right? It could be the survivor's guilt, kind of a, I can't be happy, or it can be, you know, I can't be sad because they just have to be grateful for everything. I think that's when it. Those emotions really get stored to come up later, but when they're allowed to feel all of it, whenever it comes up, it helps them to process better. And you're doing a great job modeling that. Thanks.

Kathryn: 37:41

It was really interesting. We were talking about something the other day. I can't remember something that was hard or something that, like, having a hard time getting motivated to do something. And we're talking about, oh, it could be because of this, could be because of that. And Abigail said, well, you know, there's always the big sad. I was like, oh, that's exactly what it is. It's the big sad. Anything that goes wrong from now until forever, like, it might just be the big sad.

Kristin: 38:06

I love that. And it is, that is the big sad. It's the big sad of the family

Kathryn: 38:11

I was glad she was able to kind of articulate that a little bit and like, keep our, like, keep doing that babe.

Kristin: 38:16

Like to be able to recognize that for herself, I think that's fantastic. So tell me a little bit more, I was able to read the first chapter in the last chapter of your book and now I can't wait for it to come out so I can read the middle. That's the part I'm looking forward to, too, but getting the whole thing, but what motivated you to write this book now? What do you hope to be able to share and express? What do you, you know, what are your hopes about this book and what readers will get out of it?

Kathryn: 38:47

So we were in the hospital February 6th and February 7th, and on the evening of February 7th Dallin passed away. And, you know, the night of the 6th, we got hardly any sleep. They gave us a Ronald McDonald room, and so we got a couple of hours, but really, we did not sleep very much. And then, of course, we got home later, then everything always takes longer than you think it will. So we got home later than we thought we would on the 7th, and we're sad and not sleeping well. But at four o'clock in the morning on the 8th, I woke up just with my head full of things that I had to write down. I started writing about 10 years ago when Tim was in grad school and we were living in Monterey and, and in a two bedroom apartment. And I knew that I would need to have something to make me feel like a person and not just a machine built to save money and get everybody through. whatever they were going through. And so I started writing. And so for 10 years, I've been writing sort of with this idea that, you know, maybe someday I could make this pay. Maybe someday I could get a book published. Maybe someday I could be an author and not just a mom who likes to write stuff. And four o'clock in the morning, the day after my son died, I just, my head was just full of things I had to, like, I had to write down. So I got up and everybody else was asleep and I just wrote and wrote and wrote and I wrote the talk that I would give at his funeral. And it was, I, I just wrote it all right then. I didn't change it afterwards. I, it was just, it came to me and that's what it was. And, and as soon as I had it written down, I knew that my next job was To write a book that we had experienced the, the talk I gave at his funeral was all about how God sends us miracles when horrible things happen. How President Nelson, prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day saints. He gave a talk one time where he said that as saints, as people have taken upon us the name of Christ, we have a right and a responsibility to seek and expect miracles. And. So that was all of what I talked about. Like how, just because we didn't get the miracle that we wanted, doesn't mean that there were no miracles to be found, like the miracles were all around us. And I knew that there were too many of them to just talk about in this talk. And I needed to write this book and it was, it was like, it was just one of those moments where everything that you've been doing in your whole life comes together. And God says, This is what it was for. This is why. You thought you were writing for this one thing and that you would write this one type of book, but that's not what it was about. The whole time, I was making you ready to write this book at this time so that when this happened, you wouldn't have to improve your skills and get to know people in the industry and start going to, you've done all those things, and now you're ready. So write it. This is what you were meant to do all along. And so that, yeah, like, so I wrote it really quickly. It was done probably two months after Dallin died. I just wrote and wrote and wrote. And it's not long. It's only like a hundred pages long. But I wanted it to be short because it really focuses on those two days. Like, just Those two days and what it was like to go through and how the Lord blessed us with miracles to get through it. But also if someone is grieving or if you need to be there for someone who's grieving in the moment, you don't have time or energy to read a whole big book. Like you really can't. It's people were so kind. And actually one of the things that people gave me that I appreciate the most was books, but I haven't been able to read most of them. I just don't have the energy and especially not at the beginning, goodness, like the last thing I was a, I could barely, I couldn't get through a whole day. Like I couldn't get through a whole day. I would eventually sometime I would have to like, just go in my room and close my eyes. I certainly didn't have energy to read a book about grieving or anything, anything really. And so I knew I wanted to be short. I knew I wanted to be really like laser focused on just. That specific experience and my impressions that I had that were so clear in the moment, but that over time start to fade away that you don't, you don't remember them quite the same when the, when time has gone by. But yeah, that's, that's really what it's about and that's why I wrote it because Because I knew, like, that was the why of everything I had been doing for 10 years, so that when that happened, I would be ready to write the book that God always meant for me to write. And yeah, it was done. And then I submitted it, I just submitted it to a couple of publishers and I was really glad one of them picked it up because I knew that if I didn't get picked up by a publisher I'd have to self publish it and I just, that sounded so exhausting. Couldn't even barely bear it so I'm very grateful for Cedar Fort Publishing picking up the book, helping me package it and we'll see it's, it should be coming out pretty soon and I'll give you that information as soon as I have it. The Lord prepared me in so many ways to meet this moment, right? When Dallin died, it became very clear, so many experiences that I had been having my whole life that had taught me other things and helped me through other experiences, but really were meant to help me through this moment, this experience, so that when I got right here to this moment. Exact moment. I would be ready. That doesn't mean it wasn't hard. It doesn't mean I'm grateful, grateful for it. It does mean like we're family still, right? We're we're whole. I didn't lose my faith. I didn't lose my husband. You know, there are marriages that fall apart when things like this happen. Cause it's just so painful. And that didn't happen to us. Like I. I, I felt that everything God could possibly have done for us, He did for us. And I just wanted to, to witness of that, that like, when we are looking for it, miracles are so big, there's so many that God is trying so hard to help us. But we need help. We need help to see it. It's not always super obvious. Like, oh wait, that was a miracle. Oh wait, like that was him trying to help me. It's not always obvious. Like, we need those eyes to see. We need to be looking for it or we're going to miss it. And I just, I just wanted to be a witness for that and to just, I don't know, it occurred to me when I finished that it, it might make people feel bad. Like me talking about the different ways that I've been blessed and I didn't want that to happen. I, I don't want anyone to feel bad because they didn't get help the same way that I got help or they feel like they didn't receive preparation the way I received preparation. Like I don't, I don't want that. But I, I do feel a responsibility to, to witness like, He loves, he loves you, you know, like he loves us so much, like being separated from Dallin just for this little while. I have a new awareness of like, the pain he must be going through being separated from all of us all the time. Like so many of his kids, he just doesn't get to be around that. He doesn't get to be close to the way that he wants us. And when we let him into our lives, it's, it's a gift for us for sure, but it's a gift for him. It's really the gift he wants the most. He just wants to be close to us. The way we want to be close to our loved ones that have, that have gone on, that have passed away. And I just, I think that's just my witness. Like we can be close to him. He can send us miracles. He has help waiting for us. And, and if we look for it, we're going to find it.

Kristin: 47:27

I love everything you shared, honestly, and I remember at the funeral being blown away by that talk that I didn't realize, you know, had been this download for you, the morning after Dallin passed away, but just. I don't remember attending a funeral where I left with so much hope. That's not normally, you know, I mean, there's always like a feeling of hope. Not always. Many funerals, there is still a feeling of hope that's there. But I felt like you just delivered this most powerful sermon to all of us that anyone who was there was privileged to have been able to be there. And it's really sweet to me to be able to hear the backstory. That you woke up and that this was the message and I remember, you know, I remember all the things you talked about. I remember talking about looking for the miracles and being reminded for that and how we find what we're looking for. And when you're training your mind to look for those miracles, I think number one, you see them more. But number two, I think there are more of them. I think the things that we show gratitude for and that, you know, there's a little saying where focus goes, energy flows or whatever, that kind of a thing, but I think there are more of them to be had. So, I'm super excited to read this book and for other people to have that and I think for them to be able to say. You know, you said, I don't want people to feel bad if they didn't have the same kind of support I did or whatever, but to be hopeful that that kind of support can still come for them moving forward, regardless of what's happened in your past. Yeah. You can, always change the dynamics of how we're showing up in life and what's going on moving forward. Yeah. Yeah. And and I love what you shared about feeling so prepared for this time and to share this book. And I think that it will be the first book. Yeah. Yeah. I suspect there are more books in you.

Kathryn: 49:39

Yeah. I have a, I have a list.

Kristin: 49:43

Love it. I think that's awesome. I think Dallin is cheering you on.

Kathryn: 49:49

Yeah, that's funny. That was something else I, I felt in the temple yesterday when we were there. Like, I haven't ever thought about this before, but I just remember feeling like I want him to be proud of me, which is so funny to say, right? He was eight years old. You know, usually think about, well, I really want my eight year old to be proud of me. Like I'm the parent, like I'm the one who's proud of him. Yeah. I just, yeah. I really was like, oh, Dylan, I really hope I can make you proud. So I'm, I'm proud of him, you know. I

Kristin: 50:21

think it goes both ways. I suspect he's already proud of you right now. I suspect he's been there watching along the way, that he was there at the funeral, that he's been there, you know. He's still aware. I'm honored that I've been able to talk to you and learn from you. And I just think you have so much to offer and I hope that I can show up better because of what I've learned.

Kathryn: 50:50

Thank you. I really appreciate the chance to be here as well.

Kristin: 50:54

So there's one question that I like to ask all of my guests if you could have a billboard. It's this like powerful billboard because everyone in the whole world is going to see the message on it. What message do you think the world needs?

Kathryn: 51:09

So there's that story in the Bible of Jairus, whose daughter is very sick. Goes to Jesus and he asked him to heal him and Jesus says yeah I'll go with you and they go and the crowd is pressing and Jesus stops to heal the woman with the issue of blood and It's just I had never read it this way before but reading it after Dallin died I could feel this like mounting anxiety like from Jairus like hurry up Like I told you she's dying. Like what are we doing? Like Just wanting to punch everybody in the crowd away like, Get out of our way! We have to go! And then they finally get there and the servants come out and say, Don't bother the master, she's died already. And just that feeling of like, Oh, I'm too late. Like I'm too late. I did everything I could do and I'm still too late. And Jesus says to him, he says, Fear not. Only belief. And I think that's what I would want on that billboard. That's like the thing that we all, that we all need, whatever, like, it's what I needed, it's what Jairus needed, and he got his little girl healed right away, right? And I won't see Dallin for quite a while, but it is still the message, and it is still the promise, like, this death that we're talking about, this happened, this is temporary. So fear not, only believe, like all these things we're going through, all this stuff, like, this is temporary, I have promised you, I have power over life and death, and you have each other, fear not, only believe.

Kristin: 52:46

Oh, that's powerful. I felt like this was just what I needed today. So thank you. I hope that our listeners are also feeling that. And we're going to hold this episode for a minute until we know that the book is out so that we can put a link in the show notes so that people know where to go to buy your book because I'm sure after they listen to this, that will be the next natural step record it and have an audible type version as well.

Kathryn: 53:14

Yeah. I'm going to be doing the audio book. I haven't quite that's my next step actually is I got to get jumped through those hoops and start recording it. So I'm, I'm excited to do that. That'll be awesome.

Kristin: 53:26

So it'll be in your own voice. Yeah. Yeah. I love when authors read their own books.

Kathryn: 53:32

Me too. Especially this kind of a book.

Kristin: 53:34

Well, thank you so much for being here and for sharing with us, and we just send all of our love to you and your family.

Kathryn: 53:41

Thank you, Kristin. We feel it all the time. We feel it all the time. The support of all the many, many people who have shown up for us, even if it's just in spirit and they haven't told us about it, like we, we feel it.

Kristin: 53:57

I'm so glad. Thank you. And thank you for joining us on another episode of Solidarity Sister.

54:04

Outro Music

Kristin: 54:09

Thank you so much for being a listener here. I hope that you took away so much from this episode as I did. Also, I want to make sure that you know that if you check the show notes, you're going to be able to find a link to buy Kathryn's book and also some information about her book launch if you happen to be anywhere in the neighborhood of Stansbury Park, Utah, which is about 30 miles west of Salt Lake City. I also wanted to just give you a little bit of background for those of you who are not members of my faith, and Kathryn and I share the same faith, that our, our official name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. We have prophets and apostles just like Jesus did when he ministered on the earth. So our prophet currently is President Russell M. Nelson. He has been alive for basically a century and has so much wisdom. He was a renowned heart surgeon first. There's a lot to learn from him. So that is the book she was talking about. Deseret Book is a company that is definitely It's affiliated towards our church and offers lots of church books, but it also carries books that a regular bookstore would carry, children's books and the like. So the Desert Bookshelf app is what Kathryn was talking about there. And the temple, the temple is something that's really special and sacred in our faith. It is a place where we can go and. Be sealed to our spouse for what we consider time and all eternity so that when we die our family Relationships don't end but that we can be together forever and you can go back and visit the temple and Kathryn talked about Being in the temple and that that is the place where she feels closest to Dallin. It is a peaceful place where you really can feel close to God there. And in this case, Kathryn appreciates feeling close to Dallin So, I hope that you will buy Kathryn's book. I hope that you will share this episode with anyone you think that could use it. Maybe even share it on your own social media. I hope that you will, if you're finding value here, that you will subscribe, so that episodes automatically download, and that you would consider leaving a review. When you leave a review, it lets the algorithm know that more people should be given the opportunity to check out this podcast. So if it is adding value to you and you think it could add value to others, please go in, leave a review, subscribe, and share it. That would mean a lot to me. This is a labor of love and I love being able to share it. Most importantly, thank you for being part of the Solidarity Sister community. We needed you.