Healing Betrayal Trauma Through God and Community with Jeni Brockbank | Ep 53

Betrayal trauma cuts deep, because it is the betrayal of the most intimate partner relationship. If this is not something you have experienced, I guarantee that someone in your circle has, or is going through it right now. Despite the painful subject matter, this episode is full of hope for healing. Listen in as Jeni Brockbank shares her own experiences, as well as the resources that have helped her. 

Find Jeni's book here: https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Christs-Patterns-Sexual-Betrayal-ebook/dp/B0CPCKTNLY

Find Jeni's podcast here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healing-in-christs-light/id1685778824

Link to SA Lifeline: https://salifeline.org/

And if you have a friend that you think would be served by listening to this episode, please pass it on.

About Jeni: 

Jeni Brockbank is a mother of six and resides in northern Utah. She is the author of the new book "Healing In Christ’s Light From Patterns of Sexual Betrayal," a testament to her passion for healing with and guiding others through the pain of sexual betrayal from a significant other. Jeni warmly embraces community to foster healing, empathy and resilience.

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If you're a woman who appreciates connecting with other women in community with vulnerability and compassion, please join us in the Solidarity Sister! Facebook group at:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/716800349946338/

The Solidarity Sister! Book Club has begun and runs through the end of May. We're reading Brené Brown's Gifts of Imperfection over a period of 15 weeks, and connecting via Zoom and Marco Polo. Find more info in the FB group. Sign up at https://forms.gle/ZHpfhd8hwCpw6NL2A

FB: The Solidarity Sister Podcast
IG: @solidaritysister.kristinwilson 

Transcript

Jeni: 0:00

What I can say is it's worth the effort. You are worth the effort, the time, the resources to find the healing, to really dive deep and to figure that out and to find your people. In fact, that's one of the things, the first things, if I could go back in time and tell my early recovery self something, it would be find your people, Jeni. They're there. It's hard to find them sometimes, but they will walk with you through hell and back. They just will. And it is one of the most precious gifts of this whole journey.

Kristin: 0:42

Hello and welcome to another episode of Solidarity Sister with Kristin Wilson. As I have been going through the edits for this episode, I have just been so uplifted and we're talking about something that really isn't an uplifting subject. Today on the podcast you'll be listening to Jeni Brockbank. She is the author of a new book, Healing in Christ's Light from Patterns of Sexual Betrayal. So this is a heavy topic. We are talking about generally wives, although it can go the other way, who have been betrayed by their spouse. There is so much pain and heartache from the betrayal that comes from that intimate of a relationship. And there is still so much healing to be had. And in this episode, Jeni is going to talk a lot about her faith and about healing through Jesus Christ. Maybe you are not a Christian, but maybe you could hold space for there being a higher power, a God for you, the universe, however you want to say it. There is more to this life than just us. And there is so much healing in surrendering that kind of pain. To our Savior or to whatever higher power you ascribe to. I find that Jeni just has such a calming sweet energy about her despite the hardships and I love what she's gonna tell you all about where community was a turning point for her in her healing? That's what we're here for. We're talking about community we're talking about leaning in about supporting each other and so even if betrayal trauma is not part of your life experience, and I'm happy for you that it isn't. If that is the case, lean in because I guarantee you there are friends in your neighborhood or in your church congregation or in your family or your coworkers or someone that you are connected to that is going through this. And the more that you can understand it, the better that you can show up for them. And if it is you that's going through this and this book sounds like it could resonate with you, Jeni also has a podcast and the link to both of those will be in the show notes. Reach out to her or reach out in whatever circles you can and get that community support because it truly makes all the difference. We do not have to do life alone.

3:25

Outro Music

Kristin: 3:29

Hello and welcome to another episode of Solidarity Sister with Kristin Wilson and I am super excited to bring you Jeni Brockbank today. She has such a peaceful energy and just has space for people and has become really an important person in the betrayal trauma community. So if you're not familiar with that term, we're generally talking about women who have been betrayed by a spouse, either through an extramarital affair, could be an emotional affair, or it could be a compulsive pornography addiction, but something where there is just betrayal there. And Jeni's written a book. We're going to talk about her book. We're going to talk about how community has played a role. And I'm just really grateful for her time today. So Jeni, tell me, how are you doing today for real?

Jeni: 4:20

First of all those were really generous words. So I appreciate you, you saying that, and thank you for having me. I'm really excited to, to chat with you. How am I doing for real today? Well, It's such a good question. I would say in truth, last night I was a complete mess and I was up at like, what, 3 30 in the morning praying and I've got my own, my own spot in my closet, you know, I couldn't sleep. So I'm up just, just pouring my heart out to God. But you know, this morning something really cool happened. And for me, I do believe in peace in Christ. There's peace in Christ. And it's not always something, it's not like I can just push a button and get it. But this morning, something cool happened in that The song Master the Tempest is Raging was going through my head and I realized that that was, that was a a gift from God. And it's like basically saying there's all these, you know, the winds and the waves shall obey thy will and then peace be still. And it was like my soul just soaked that in. So I'm really grateful for that because here I am with you. Just. Honestly, almost in tears of the gratitude that he, he did give me that peace this morning. And like I said, that might change in five minutes, but, but that's where I'm at right now. And it was a process to get there. So thanks.

Kristin: 5:47

Oh, I love that. And I love that song. My husband and I lead a youth choir in Tooele Valley. Anyone who lives in Tooele Valley ages 11 to 18 is invited to show up. There's no like registration or audition. We meet on Sunday nights and we've done this arrangement of master, the tempest is raging. That is incredible. I love it. The piano part is kind of difficult. I choose most of our music. I also am our accompanist. And then sometimes I'm surprised by how hard a piece is. And I'm like, Oh, I did not see this coming yet. I chose the music, but it's phenomenal. And. The kids love to sing it, the youth, like it's one that they'll ask, like, we haven't sung Master, the Tempest is Raging in a couple of weeks. Can we sing that one? They, they love it because it does. And it goes through the way the music is written. It gets really intense in some of the parts. You know, we're really talking about the waves and the wind and the, like it's howling. It is really rough. And then the music becomes so calm and peaceful and quieter to that peace, be still. So next time we sing it, I'm going to record it and send it to you. You know what?

Jeni: 6:52

Yeah. Or, or just let me know where and when, and I want to come hear it it because I'm in Tooele so I could do that. You are

Kristin: 6:58

welcome to. So we meet from 5 to 6 p. m. at the Stansbury Seminary building every Sunday. If we're not going to meet, then we'll put it on our social media. We're on Instagram and Facebook as Tooele Valley Youth Choir, but we meet pretty much every Sunday. So anytime you want to come and kids in that age range, they're welcome to come. It's, it's been A really awesome experience for us to get to do that.

Jeni: 7:20

That's so beautiful.

Kristin: 7:21

I look forward

Jeni: 7:22

to hearing.

Kristin: 7:22

It hits people. Yeah, like getting the music into your heart feels different and we mostly sing Jesus music. We have a Disney arrangement. We have some other things we pull out for fun, but we mostly sing Jesus for music. So it's a good time.

Jeni: 7:35

Cool. For sure. I

Kristin: 7:36

love that. So what are you listening to? Like music, podcasts, audio books, what's in your ear?

Jeni: 7:44

These days I listen to a lot of Christian rock. I've got my playlist that I probably need to update because it's got a lot of, a lot of the same things that I can tell. I'm like, I'm, it's not engaging me quite as much, but I do love, love Christian rock an awful lot. So there's that. And also, so for me, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and I just find I really appreciate that there's sometimes a different way of wording things. from different denominations that I don't hear in my Sunday worship or whatever that I just find valuable and helps me connect in different ways to my faith to Jesus to God and so So that's, that's a lot what I'm listening to these days.

Kristin: 8:33

Oh, that, there's a lot of power in that. So tell me about a little bit about your own experience, what's led you to write this book. And also I'd love for you to include, you know, how community has played a role in this process for you.

Jeni: 8:48

Oh, maybe I'll start there if that's okay. Because I'll just share that One, we come into this world, into the betrayal trauma world, no one by like choice, it's like we're forced there. You know, it's, it's usually from painful experiences and there's so much shame. And for me, I had hid a lot of that for so many years. In fact, it was like 17 and a half years. I always put the half in it matters, but it's

Kristin: 9:20

months

Jeni: 9:21

of extra, you know, like, right, right. That I lived in isolation from betrayal trauma, but I'm not alone. And the problem is, is when you have a third of married men who are compulsively viewing pornography, that's just one way that people are acting out daily or weekly. then you've got this whole other demographic of women who are like me, silent. And because we suffer, you know, it's like the statistic that's the generally one, the general one that's quoted is 70 percent of us struggle with PTSD symptoms from 2 to 5 years. That's really severe without getting help. You know, and so we, we do this, we go into isolation we think people won't understand. We for me, I felt like I'm going to just heal with God. That's all I'm going to do. I'm going to heal with God, me and God. And you know, it's fascinating because finally I had found evidence of acting out again, you know, in 17 and a half years, this is, this is the point. And I remember having this prayer where I said, Heavenly Father, I cannot take another minute of this. I am hurting so badly. And at this point, I didn't believe in addiction really, or anything, sex addiction or anything like that. But these words came out of my mouth. So I think some sub level, I don't know, part of me did understand that it's a deal, you know, that it's a really legitimate thing. Because I started saying, I will do anything. I will do the addiction recovery program. I will do 12 steps and I'll do therapy and I'll do, and I started just listing all of these things that I would be willing to do. And it was fascinating because that was the first time that he really responded to me about the subject of community. And he said, I will heal you in community. And that has been true in so many countless ways. Oh, I'm going to cry. I am crying. I didn't know how much I needed community. And in fact I had done another interview recently about my book. And one of the questions that the interviewer asked was, he said, why, you know, when people give acknowledgements, an acknowledgement page is usually pretty short, it's like, you know, you're going to give two or three, I just recorded it on audible and it's like five minutes and a lot of it is just this person and this person and this person and this person and this person and this, that's what it is. Is I, I could not have written a book. I'm not a professional. You know, I could not have written a book if all of these people Did not let me stand on their shoulders. And it's so humbling. So I would just take what I like and leave the rest, which is just kind of recovery talk, you know, that we but from everybody and from all the programs that I was blessed to participate in and In fact, I'll just share that the first person that I reached out to is a mutual friend of ours. And that is the wonderful sunshine in human form, Katy Willis. That's my, my nickname for her because it just fits her so well. But I remember it was like a priesthood leader, a clergy had suggested that I reach out to Katy who was vocal about betrayal trauma. And I thought. No, no, you know, this has been 17 and a half years and I've done this with God and I'm just fine doing this with God and continuing this and, and something just kept nagging at me. Call Katy, call Katy, call Katy. And I can say that that was one of the most life changing conversations I have ever had in my life to where she just kindly and gently. push back on some of my thinking. I remember I had this argument with her of sorts. Not, it wasn't an argument. It was more like I was telling her, I don't think boundaries are a righteous principle. And Katy just pushed back in such beautiful ways. And now it's like, Oh my gosh, I'm all in with boundaries. God uses boundaries. I can use boundaries and it's so freeing. But, but that was one of the first conversations and what I, I learned is, is that God uses other people to help us. It takes courage to step into the light. It is terrifying because it's like people might see, I remember my first recovery meeting going and sitting in the parking lot. My prayer was, Please do not let anybody I know attend this meeting, please, you know, I'm begging you to not let anybody know that I'm here, you know, and and now I totally get where people come from when they feel that way. And if somebody I know comes in the door. Oh, my goodness. That is so sacred. That is so precious to me that they were brave enough to do that and I just want to envelop them in love and acceptance and to let them know you're not alone. You're not crazy. There's tools that can help. Yes, this is outside of the normal range of what most people are going to be dealing with. So we have to have a different understanding. We have to have different, different ability to handle and tackle these things in new and different and sacred ways. So that is my, my story of finding community in a nutshell that has been just so precious to me, so sacred.

Kristin: 15:10

I appreciate you sharing all of that. And I totally agree with the way you're describing Katy. She was my first guest on this podcast and the first interview that I did. And I was terrified. to do this interview. And I like tried to physically prepare. I mean, I curled my hair. I never curl my hair. Like I, I even tried to do these things to like, sometimes if we dress up a little or whatever, like when I feel better. And I just thought, you know, there's so much imposter syndrome that goes to any area of growth for us. And The first interview is terrifying. Like, what if I just sound so dumb that no one ever wants to listen to this? And I'm like, why would you even put this out there? I don't know. And Katy was the perfect person because she just has such a calming energy and she's just light and sunshine and she believed in me and we had a beautiful conversation and it was, it was so good. There were just so many, even if no one else ever listened, I was so uplifted by the conversation. If it had been a private conversation, it would have been so good for, and healing for my life. I also love how you talked about, God's message to you of the value of community and healing. And one of the things that has come out in my podcasting journey through community building is this realization. And I, I don't have like statistics, but I just believe it's true. And it keeps holding. It's like one of those principles that I'm like, no unicorn has proved this wrong yet. So I'm going to keep believing otherwise. But what I've seen is. Anyone who was ever wounded by another person, whether we're talking childhood trauma, whether we're talking, I released a recent episode with someone who was, had a betrayal kind of experience, but at work on a different, you know, place, but it was definitely a betrayal. Like anytime you are wounded in relationship, you cannot fully heal without community. I don't care how much therapy you go to. I don't care how many modalities you use. I don't care what you do. There will be a part of you that remains unhealed until you have a community that holds a safe space for you that will finish the healing work. Now that personal work is important. There is value there. The community won't do it all for you. You have to step up, but the real healing doesn't come to a place of completion until you lean into community.

Jeni: 17:49

I love that. It was certainly true for me. You know, that's what I can say is that is certainly true for me. And I've seen that to be true for others that I've I've been privileged to walk with. So you know, and to add to that too is that Dr. Adam Moore has this quote that I just adore where he says, Christ heals in the light. And you know, if people, maybe some of your listeners believe in, in different God, that's okay. Maybe substitute that with, with that. But for me, Christ heals in the light. And for me, that was stepping out of my comfort zone, coming into community. It was like, until I could say there's this problem and other people might understand and they might have tools and, you know, like you're saying, like with professionals, it's so critical sometimes to have that, that support and backing, but also people who walk through the journey. They sometimes have things professionals don't understand because they're in the trenches, they can relate better, they can offer empathy better than, than a, maybe a therapist can all the time, just because they, they get it. They're like, yeah, I see you. And I'm a big believer that, that, that is one of the most critical things about community is mourning with those who mourn. We're not there trying to fix. We're not there trying to tell everybody how to walk their own path. It's like, I'm going to walk with you. And when I can, I will throw buckets of water on those fire on that fire because other people have done that for me. And it is so sacred. That they were willing to do that for me and I am honored to do that for you as I can as well and we become you know, really this this beautiful community of God's hands that We're qualified in ways. We wish we never would have been you know, but that qualification becomes so sacred and so precious.

Kristin: 19:54

Oh, I, I do love that. I shared this on an episode, I don't know when, because I can't keep track anymore. And we're in our 40s now of episodes, but at some point, but. High five. That's a big accomplishment. You're doing great

Jeni: 20:07

things. Yeah.

Kristin: 20:08

So much. I, I appreciate that. It's

Jeni: 20:11

true.

Kristin: 20:12

It's been a ride. It's fun to see. One of my favorite Bible stories is when Lazarus dies. And Jesus comes and he's too late, right? And in Jewish tradition, he came on the fourth day. And in the first couple of days, there's this belief that the spirit is kind of hanging out to, so to speak. And so he still could maybe be saved, but on the fourth day, he's like really dead, like dead, dead. There's no hope. All hope is gone. And so Mary and Martha, Lazarus's sisters and Jesus's dear friends are just sobbing and they're like, why didn't you come? Like they're mourning, they're frustrated, they feel disappointed, they feel probably unseen because if Jesus loved them so much and was their friend, like, why didn't he come yesterday? You know, what, what in the heck? And there's the shortest verse of scripture right there, John chapter 11, verse 35. Jesus wept. And to me, that is the perfect example of the difference when we're baptized as members in our church, we covenant to mourn with those that mourn and comfort those that stand in need of comfort. But for most of us, it's harder to learn mourning than comforting and to even acknowledge that there's a difference. Comforting is I'm showing up with dinner. Comforting is I'm taking your kids so that you have a break or whatever, like, but mourning is just Jesus wept.

Jeni: 21:43

And

Kristin: 21:43

he doesn't say, oh, don't worry about it, like, I've got this, I'm about to bring Lazarus back from the dead, like, you know, it's okay, you don't, stop crying. He doesn't actually say any of that. He meets them where they are and cries with them and witnesses their pain with them. And so much power in that. And that took me a while to learn that lesson and to be able to say, I don't have to fix it. Okay. Like if someone else's husband has done something to them. I cannot possibly fix that. I don't have magic words, I don't have like the ability to time travel, I can't fix anything, but I can just sit with them and witness how they're feeling. And there's something so empowering and healing about that in being seen for where you are. So I love that you brought that up.

Jeni: 22:37

Thank you. Yeah, I agree with you. There's something about it that just soothes your soul and like you, I didn't come into this knowing how to do that. You know, I was a really great fixer. I've got all these ideas and I've got this and, and, oh, you're hurting. Let's you know. And I learned that really I was struggling to see people hurting. I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's, let's fix this. And instead, you know, the more I could just sit with them in it it just became, it opened up friendships. It opened up relationships that opened up safe communication. And to his credit, I had a therapist who taught us that in group therapy to where it was a process for me, for sure. But he would kind of challenge us or he would say, And how, does anybody relate with that? Instead of like, how are you going to fix that? You know, does anybody relate with that? And I think the more we can feel, I'm not alone, you know, that other people do care. They will sit with me in it. It does alleviate pain in some way. It like calms my soul and soothes me down when I feel seen. And so I do love to do that for others when I can. I don't think I'm perfect at it, but I am practicing.

Kristin: 23:52

I think that's all that we can do. So you mentioned that you had gone through most of this journey alone with God. So not, I won't say alone, but without other physical people really involved, isolating. There is a lot of shame around this particular area where a lot of women are silently suffering. And I'm sure there are some men too. I know the statistics are heavily in favor of women, however, that doesn't mean that there aren't men who are experiencing betrayal trauma. There absolutely are. So we want to make space for them as well but you know, this is Solidarity Sisters. We're focusing on the women, but where did, so you reached out to Katy. And then where else did that lead you? You know, did you go to support groups? Did you find online groups? Like, where else? So I'm imagining a listener who's like, okay, can I look up this Katy Willis? And yes, you probably could and she has been like, where would you recommend someone go for some of that community support with this issue?

Jeni: 24:51

Yeah, I'm going to refer back to Katy, actually, one of the first things that she did for me because during that conversation I was telling her, I've heard really just bad things about this one recovery program and, and so I've decided, you know, I don't feel good about going to it. And she said, you know what, maybe, but. If that, if there's so many and, and for me, I live in Utah and there's like really so many recovery options in this. And so she says, maybe, but if that one's not a good fit, go try another one, go try, you know, this. And so I would say, for me, it, it just depends. Like, I have found good healing in the addiction recovery program for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. I currently work 12 steps through S. A. Lifeline. Well, through S. A. L. 12 step, which is Essay Lifeline and I adore it. I have worked the Healing through Christ program some and really, really love it. It's beautiful. I would say that any meeting can be pretty good as long as I, one, have the ability to take what I like and leave the rest. And two, there's enough safety in the meeting. That's not always the case, but you know, for me, I think where we can get tripped up is it's like, Oh my gosh, I had this really traumatic experience in this one group and it was awful. I'm not going back. Well, we, we still need community. It's like we were in a car accident almost that wasn't our fault, but we have all these broken bones and things, you know, we're really needing to heal. We're responsible. to be going to our doctor appointments and to figure out how we can heal. It's the same with this. So it, you know, I don't necessarily know. I mean, there's lots of places to start looking. There's Essanon. Like I mentioned, SAL 12 step there's, if you call your local therapy offices, they might have some good recommendations for, for like a group therapy. I'm a big advocate of group therapy. There's something about that community. Piece that is just sacred like here in Utah, we have, and in other places too, is the Lifestar program. I love how Lifestar is set up. I did, I did do the Lifestar program and it's like phase one, phase two, phase three. And it's organized and they do things like set up community before you get to the stage of setting boundaries so that you have people to help you work through those kinds of things. And so that's actually kind of, I just kept in mind that That kind of organization when I was writing my book as well so that people could could say okay here are maybe some things to consider before doing this, but I do know like there's Addo if people live in Utah So down in Lehi, but you have a worldwide audience, so I don't necessarily know you know, of everything in the whole world. What I can say is it's worth the effort. You are worth the effort, the time, the resources to find the healing, to really dive deep and to figure that out and to find your people. In fact, that's one of the things, the first things, if I could go back in time and tell my, my early recovery self something, it would be find your people, Jeni. They're there. It's hard to find them sometimes, but they will walk with you through hell and back. They just will. And it is one of the most precious gifts of this whole journey. And you know, also to mention something, one more thing, is that you've got because there are world, you know, people from all over the world listening, there are online options. For instance, SA Lifeline, so SA L12 Step, and SNN. are both online things. So you can go on, you can figure out something that might work for you, you know, time wise, and you can log into Zoom and, and connect with people. And really, the cost, while they, they do like donations, the only real cost is your books. Like that is, is what you need to work the program. So I think it's tricky with 12 steps. And I'll just mention because like I talked about a trauma model where you have all these different phases and 12 steps like steps four through nine aren't very trauma sensitive. They did, they, you know, for that very beginning, they're empowering when you come into this place of healing where you can work, work that kind of thing. But yeah. It's okay if you decide to do 12 steps and just say, I'm going to work steps one through three on repeat until I'm ready to move on, you know, and, and that's okay. We get to do whatever works for us so that we have the ability to gain that stability, to find footing, to find that healing, and to really heal relationship with God so that we can trust. That he will heal us. He will walk us, you know, through this and he'll be by our sides as we heal.

Kristin: 30:08

I love that. And yeah, I think online there are so many options. So if you're not somewhere that has that, and I'm sure there are tons of Facebook groups and it can be the same thing. Like you said, try, try the different ones, right? Because if you get in and you're like, this space doesn't feel good. You know, like if you get into a space, it just feels, all husband beating or partner beating and that's the whole point and people aren't healing focused then you might be like well this is not the energy that I really want from this because I actually want to find healing then oh you try a different one and I think that that that totally works you go you go to the place that feels good but with our online world and all of the zoom options I think Addo has some things that are online now as well. Yeah

Jeni: 30:54

they have their bloom for women. That's, you know, and you can take courses and things, and I think they've got like betrayal trauma coaches and things that you could hire, if I remember correctly. It's been a little bit since I've looked, but yeah, really great options, really great options.

Kristin: 31:08

Talk to me a minute about, this has always been a hard concept for me, 12 steps. For the person who was not engaged in the behavior or whatever the thing is. It's

Jeni: 31:20

like,

Kristin: 31:21

it does not make any sense to me and I would love to like better understand that. Why you would hand 12 step manuals to both the person who is trying to work through the addictive behavior and the person who was wounded by it.

Jeni: 31:35

Mm hmm.

Kristin: 31:36

Help me, help me figure that out, because that is one that I've always been like, what? It just doesn't resonate with me.

Jeni: 31:42

You know what? That makes sense to me. And I really struggled and didn't start 12 Steps until a few years into my recovery. So, that makes total sense to me. I'll share why I came into 12 Steps was I had been in group therapy with someone who had been in the same group therapy for like five years and I was fascinated. She and I started walking and here we're talking about community. So I'll just mention that at first she was like, but we could do something. We could walk or go to lunch or, or something. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm a homeschooling mom who's going to college. She's doing all these things. things and I'm now joining this therapy and I don't have time. And I remember having this prayer where God said, you will be rejecting a major gift if you do not do this. And he was right. Like he was so, so, so right. But it was fascinating because I walked with her at the time when she was leaving the group therapy program, And I admired her recovery. She was way ahead of me in what I knew. And so I admired what she had. But she started working 12 steps and 12 steps. I started seeing changes in her that I hadn't seen from her therapy that in here she'd been in it for like five years. And I thought that there's something to that. I want some of that. And I'm not saying actually that it's everybody's fit, but it is a free option for, for partners, you know, what, like I said, besides, besides like books and things. So whereas you're talking, it's kind of expensive, you know, that is, that is one thing. But what became empowering for me was there's a few things and I, I like it through SAL 12 step. Full disclosure, I work for the SA Lifeline Foundation. So you know, you can take what I say with a grain of salt because I am somewhat biased that way, but I do, I do love it. But the concept is God at my center, not anyone else. And so for me, it started to help with things like trauma. So say I'm being gaslit by someone and when I'm looking at that, it's like I have put them in my center. Instead of the truth that came from God, if that makes sense. And so the more I could look at that and say, Oh, I want God at my center, then I could be more stable. There's the whole concept of surrender and we love to use and surrender is not by the way, giving up it's, it's kind of like when you take the serenity prayer and it's we, we figure out what we can change and what we can't change, and we. we leave the rest kind of thing. Like we, we surrender what we can't change. And there is so much power in that. And for us, you know, as, as wives of maybe sex addicts or those who are struggling with sexual compulsions or, or misbehavior, you know, it's a big deal that we want to control our whole everything. Like we want to control. And so when we bring in the concept of surrender, all of a sudden we can look at those behaviors and say, okay, I can't actually control this. I'm going to give this to God and let this other person make these choices. And we deep dive into those kinds of thoughts so that really we're doing our very best to not control steps one through three are so beautiful. It's basically. In a really short nutshell, I can't, God can, I will let him. And so that's like the whole beautiful surrender process. And I would say, so when you're working a trauma model, you could work steps one through three anytime, but steps four through nine, which is like, What are my character defects? And, you know, that's painful. It's like the first thing that somebody needs to hear when they come into recovery is, you know, you're more than enough. This isn't your fault. You know, here's tools to help. And maybe here's some chocolate. Like, that's what we first need to hear. But eventually we get to this place where we start to find it empowering to look and say, you know what, this is how I'm showing up. And no, I'm not responsible for their behaviors, but these are the things that I am responsible for. And we want to be our best selves. And that becomes this beautiful sacred process. And when we can look to at steps four through nine, it's not just, this is what's wrong with me. It's also, this is what's right with me. And so we look at the whole big picture of this is what I'm doing really well. And this is how I want to show up differently. And then, we don't have a victim mentality anymore. If that makes sense. And that, I admire that so much when people can get to that place where, yes, we are victims. There's nothing wrong with saying that we have been victimized. Yes, we have been targets of, of this destructive behavior, of abuse, of different things. Yes, we are victims. But what can we do that where we can act and not be acted upon? What can we do to where we can protect our sanity and our safety to where we can show up in these beautiful, grounded, holding space for people ways where at least we're working on healing trauma with God so that we don't show up wounded and hurting people in, in these ways. Because like I said, we've been wounded as we've been in these car accidents of sorts, you know, and what are we going to do to heal? But I would say steps four through nine are more like phase three work. And so if people are in phase one and they're looking at this like, I don't want to look at my character defects. Kudos to you. I'm not saying that that's actually your best fit, you know, where it takes time to get there. That's okay. That's totally fine. And I have found that there are people You know, I'm going to want to find people who are not expecting me to do phase three work when I am in phase one to where they will just walk with me and soothe and see that this hurts because I need some stabilization. I need some safety. I need to know I'm more than enough instead of saying, these are my problems or whatever, you know, that's what I need in that moment. So the more we could like take that lens and just say, That's not quite where I'm at yet. I'm going to take what works for me and, and leave the rest for now. And maybe I'll come back and maybe I won't, but, but that's where I'm at at this moment. So anyways, I find 12 steps incredibly incredibly empowering because I can look at myself, I can heal from trauma, I can take a step back, I can look at my own issues and see how I'm contributing sometimes to situations and I can, when I'm doing well, I'm not perfect at it, when I'm doing well, I can look and evaluate my behavior and also look at other people's behavior and say, that's not quite right either, I need a boundary here so I hear you, and that's how I feel.

Kristin: 39:00

A 30 member group. Because Because Sometimes there's this feeling of like, I didn't do anything wrong. Why should I have to do something about it? Oh

Jeni: 39:13

yeah.

Kristin: 39:13

Which is totally fair. Like it is a victimization situation. It is as if someone was in a car accident that was not their fault. No fault to them whatsoever. They're happily driving down the road and the Mack truck just comes and slams into the car and now they have broken bones.

Jeni: 39:32

Right. But the

Kristin: 39:32

reality is when something like that happens to us in life. Our healing, it's hard, it's hard to take this in, but our healing is our responsibility. And that means going to the doctor's appointments or going to the physical therapy or getting some extra rest and sleeping longer because our body just needs rest, but honoring the things that the body needs. And in this case, you know, the mind, the spirit, everything needs to heal because healing is. It's the only way to move forward in positive ways. And there are many women who have come to this situation, been totally gutted, totally devastated, broken all the bones, and then healed and moved forward and not stayed stuck in it. You don't have to stay stuck in it. There are tools, there are options. I also love the way that you differentiated between being in different phases or stages of healing and that initially Just the you are enough. I have known beautiful model kind of women like right from the outside who are brilliant, who are all these things, who have experienced betrayal trauma. And it can be the first thought process can be it's because of me. It's because of my deficiencies. It's because of what's wrong with me, which is not true. So I can see why. Steps four through nine in that phase are wholly unhelpful. Right. It's just safety seeking. I love that you also brought up the concept of boundaries and would love to hear your perspective about, you know, you coming into it. I didn't even think that I should use boundaries at all. Now I realize I think that that is a word that's been thrown around a lot. And sometimes it's a little bit that I don't think it means what you think it means line from Princess Bride. Like we don't always. We're not always on the accurate definition. Tell us more about how you have come to see boundaries.

Jeni: 41:34

Yeah. Basically speaking in the shortest terms, it's like boundaries for me are something I will do or I won't do. And we get some, some lines crossed. And when, when people say you crossed my boundaries there's, there's, we can make requests of other people, but the boundaries actually, when they cross those requests, What are we going to do? That is where the boundary comes in. And so I, I did come into it pushing back really hard against boundaries and I'm so relieved because I remember sitting, I was in an addiction recovery program family support meeting when I read God uses boundaries. And I was like, Oh, he does, you know, well, if he does, then I can too. And so I jumped right in. And it was, it was a messy process to figure it out. I would say for me, I started then studying the scriptures about where are boundaries. in the scriptures. Like, is this really a doctrine that he uses? And, and yes, it is. And the template that I use is actually from the Garden of Eden. So I will share that if that's all right with your listeners.

Kristin: 42:49

Yes.

Jeni: 42:50

And this is what, what God did to me. I'll just summarize it in a nutshell is that he came to the Garden of Eden and he said to Adam and Eve, look at these beautiful fruits. Look at these wonderful things that you can have. I want to offer you all of these fruits, all of this delicious, you know, and this wonderful, peaceful place to be. But there's this one thing that you can't, there's this one tree. You can't partake of that tree. I'm going to command you to not, but you get to choose But if you choose, here's the consequence. And the more that I apply that template the better my boundary setting is because it's like, we say first what we want to offer, like, I want to connect with you. I want to be there, you know, I don't know, I'll use the example I use in my book, which is just a simple one, which is, I would love to snuggle you on the couch right now. In order to do that, I need you to repair what you just said. If you're not in a space to do that, that's okay. I am going to go in our room and take just really, really good care of myself. And when, and if you're ready, then we can work on that. And what it does for me is it's like, I'm going to take care of myself. But I'm going to show up well saying, I want to offer this piece of me, this, this part of the relationship. It is important to me. You are important to me, but I do need to disconnect until, you know, some basic things can be met here so that So that I have safety, so that I can know that I'm of value, so that I can show up well. And for me, applying that has been transformational. It's not a formula that works for every single situation. For instance, you might not always be able to say, you know, for now, I filed divorce, for instance. So I'm not able to say, I want to show up, you know, in our relationship and connect. like this at this time, but but I can still apply it in other relationships and with different things. So but it is my favorite way to, to look at boundaries.

Kristin: 45:05

I appreciate that perspective. I found for me, because I, I did not have any boundaries of any kind for many years and just wanted to help everyone and do all the things and sacrifice to whatever level it took to do all the things and and then I would be depleted and I would have left less to offer and it was very hard for me to understand and I don't even mean just boundaries and like people hurting me but just like I am not available to stay up all day and night to always watch other people's kids or make them dinner or whatever but I want to do those things. But like, I have to honor the physical and emotional boundaries that my body has. And I found for me, you mentioned like, it's like our, you know, we have property boundaries kind of a thing. In my case, I feel like boundaries are just. there inherently, like I moved into this house and there were already fence lines drawn with one caveat. I think that they can change a little bit in different situations, but for me, I feel those boundaries just in my body. I know when a boundary has been crossed without having to like define it. Like sometimes people like to make some whole written thing that like, if you do this, then I will this, because these are my boundaries. Like, I don't actually feel like I need like a declaration of boundaries that. I just feel it and I just know what it is. And then my job when someone comes into the yard anyway is to be able to say, what am I going to do about it? It actually has nothing to do with controlling someone else. Sometimes people see boundaries as controlling, but it's not. It's about safety and it's about saying, okay, this person asked me to do a favor that's like way beyond what my capacity is. I'm feeling a boundary crossed and they are not even trying to wound me. They're coming from a good space, but I am just feeling like I can't. So then it's my job to say, I am not available to do that. You know, and if it's in the case of like, in this case, in a husband wife relationship, you know, you can feel when someone has crossed a boundary, they've said something really unkind or hurtful, they've done behavior that was really, then your job is to be able to articulate. Okay, I am feeling not good about this and I'm going to need to withdraw and take care of myself, but I would like to repair the relationship and this is what I would need if we can get a repair, but if not, I loved that you included the piece about then I'm going to take really good care of myself because there is so much safety and being able to identify what your own intuition is telling you about where your boundaries are what your needs are and to actually taking care of yourself, which is a very difficult process for some of us, right? Excrutiatingly difficult for me to identify those things and feel like I have permission to take up space. You know, like in my own family, I have opportunities to go to a couple of events next month that would be so valuable and important to me. But I'm like, it would require some sacrifice on the part of my family to be without me because I do all the things. And, you know, just in those little places, it's okay to take up space. and care for yourself.

Jeni: 48:20

It is.

Kristin: 48:20

That is acceptable. And in fact, if I go to those events, I guarantee you I'll come back and I'll have more energy to be a wife and a mother at that time.

Jeni: 48:30

Right.

Kristin: 48:30

Because I won't be trying to keep pouring from an empty cup, which isn't sustainable. So you brought up a lot of really good points there.

Jeni: 48:39

Thank you. And I just want to add really quick to the part about taking good care of yourself. Yes, I love that you pointed that out because it is, it can be really painful to set a boundary. It's like, even if all we're doing is just connecting with some compassion or something. Oh, it hurts. You know, that distance is painful. It hurts. It's so painful to set boundaries sometimes because we want to have that connection and, you know, the truth is when we're cutting that off in some way, it's good to replace it, to look at our needs and to say, okay not that we can replace a marriage relationship in any way, but it's like, Okay, the connection is broken. Maybe I need to go connect with a friend or, or something like that to where my needs are still being met, but I do have safety as well.

Kristin: 49:29

I think that's really valuable to be able to do that. So in your book, which is focused on healing through Christ, What can our listeners expect to benefit from in picking up that book? Because we want them to, especially those who are facing this situation. We want them to be able to go and find this resource because there are not a lot of books out there, if any. That I have found that are one, there aren't that many betrayal trauma books in the first place, despite the number of people who are experiencing that. It's not something that there's like a whole library of options, but two that are so focused on healing with a spiritual power that comes from connecting to your higher power. Right. Talk a little bit more about that.

Jeni: 50:12

Yeah. Thanks for asking that. Well when I began recovery, it was like I was thrown into therapy pretty quickly. And I remember thinking, Oh my goodness, I've healed with God all of this time. Where, where is God? Where is Christ in this? I'm not hearing him. And it was unsettling to me because it was secular and there's nothing wrong with it actually being secular. But I started to say that for me, I needed to find Christ because he, for me, is the source of the healing and he needed to be integral in all of it. And so, and I needed doctrine to back up what I was learning so that I wasn't like, am I off in the weeds here? You know, I don't want to do that or, or just go with what men are saying. Like, where can I find these things in scriptures? Where can I find these things in, you know, in God's words so that I can know that. I'm still on an okay path. And it is tricky. You don't find words like boundaries in the scriptures. You know, you have to like look for the patterns and things. So so if, you know, I do bring in therapy principles, but I do bring in how they all apply with Christ and where Christ is in that and validation from Christ because I do believe and and I do believe that people can have, you know, believe who who God is to you. I'm not preaching I do believe in Christ, but I'm not telling people that that is necessarily their God, But I would say that whoever God is to you, like the more we can make him integral in it is the key to really thorough healing. He does more than other people can. He does more than therapy alone. Like we, he is in all of the tools and to find God, for me, that's Christ in all of the tools. is the key to a thorough, deep healing. Just one time I remember, and this is in my book as well, where my husband had been treating me pretty poorly for an extended period of time, and he was suffering with severe, severe mental health issues. And so as I was praying and I'd started to fast that morning and I just said something like, Heavenly Father, I am hurting so badly and I have given all that I know how. I've shown up, you know, and done all that I can think of to do. And this is really painful and I don't know what to do. Will you step in and will you help me? And it was fascinating that day because as my My husband took the sacrament, he looked at me with such intensity and he was like red and he said, I love you so much. I feel it in my head and in my hands and my heart and in my feet and I just feel it throughout my whole body. I love you so intently. Well, that was a God thing. That was not something that I could do. I had tried, you know, I had done all I knew how. That was God intervening and saying. I'm going to take over now. I will step in and I will help. And he did. And so he does things. It's not always that miraculous. He doesn't always part the Red Sea, but he can, you know, and he can, when he, we bring him in, he helps us in ways that were not possible. before.

Kristin: 53:48

I think that's so beautiful. And I love that you're bringing both aspects together, because sometimes, and I know people who have felt this way, like, because God, and I do believe this, is capable of healing all the things that therefore we should just count on God to heal all the things. But God also blessed us with brains and with tools and with things that we can do. And I think the most powerful healing happens when we use them all. So for some one that might mean medication for someone else, not for someone. It might mean individual therapy or group therapy or learning about somatic exercises. Or breathing or EMDR or quantum neural reset therapy or like whatever. There are so many healing modalities and they're not all going to work for everyone. But God has provided us with these brains to create all these tools where we're really going to have the most power in my personal belief is when we are combining those tools with God. God can lead us to which tools are going to resonate most with us individually, because there's all these options now. So, you know, we can get out there and try them and kind of feel them out. Like, does this feel like a good step for me? And I think that that is also a really important part of the healing journey for this. to be really trying to lean into God and to the intuition and divine messages from God because this kind of an experience just destroys a woman's confidence in themselves because most of the time The story comes out by some kind of discovery. It's just not the husband saying, Oh my gosh, or the partner saying like, I've been doing these things and I want to change. It's generally like discovery of these behaviors that have been going on. And. There may have not been any sign, like, there may not have felt like there were red flags that could be identified. And so it just totally guts a person's confidence, like, to be able to discern right from wrong or truth from whatever, like, you're just you know, that's really, really a tough place to be in and being able to take personal responsibility for healing and to lean into intuition on which healing tools that those are all confidence building things. There's one other thing that you mentioned that I really want to bring up because I think that there are some people who are like, you know, Oh, you're such a prude if you don't, you know, want to view pornography, you don't like, you know, this whole like, well, what's really wrong with it? Is it really a public health crisis? Like these are consensual adults, which most of the time, actually, they're not, but whatever. We can argue about that all day long about how sex trafficking plays a part. But in my experience with the many, many women who have shared stories with me on this topic, I find universally If there is a compulsive pornography in the mix, whether you want to call it addiction or not, whatever, compulsive pornography use, one, there is a lack of healthy coping, emotional regulation skills. But two, there is abuse of some kind in the home.

Jeni: 57:08

Right.

Kristin: 57:09

It may be physical, it may be spiritual, it may be financial, it may be sexual, it may, like, there's emotion, like, whatever, there's all these different ways, but there's something about the way it rewires the brain to view people as objects, treat people like objects, and you brought up your husband having this period of not treating you very well, which I'm going to guess correlated with. what was going on in the dark room alone. But is this something that you've seen as well in the people that you know? That it isn't just about what that, those few minutes, the behaviors towards the loved ones.

Jeni: 57:48

No, absolutely. You're right in that it's, it does change people. It's, and you know, I think it was really helpful for me to learn from, Dr. Donald Hilton that Pornography, it's not that they're necessarily addicted to the pictures. They're addicted to the chemicals that acting out creates And so, you know, we can go to a drugstore and we can buy something or you can self produce it. So when you're looking at people who have access to drugs that they don't have to buy, they can become addicted to. It does physically change the brain. I have seen brain scans of that happening. It can physically alter the brain. It can't help, but. affect people's thinking. It just can't help but, you know, in fact in my book I talk about like the fruits of When you plant peas, you grow peas, you know, and the fruits of when somebody is behaving in these way or viewing pornography, it does come out in these sideways ways. And sometimes it looks different because there are some men who might struggle with sexual dysfunction. Actually, there are some men who might become overly angry or who completely withdraw and are isolated. And so it's tricky because you're looking at it like, okay, well, what am I looking for? What are the signs? What I like to do is basically look at the key things of, if they're being humble, honest, accountable, and willing to connect. I almost don't ever set boundaries these days based on what I'm seeing. I've almost always set, like, I didn't find necessarily acting out behavior in some instances I will be setting because it's like those are the, those are the fruits of whatever destructive behavior is happening. And so often We don't see what happens. We don't see and understand because you, you know, you brought up like dishonesty. Yeah, I mean, and so often it's more than dishonesty. It's gaslighting, which is emotionally abusive. And just to, to put out there quickly that gaslighting is manipulative in that it's not just lying about something. It's like something must be wrong with you, you know, or you're. No, you know, I'm not behaving like that. I didn't say that or, or whatever. And all of a sudden you start to wonder if you're crazy instead of just, I was being lied to. It's different. And so almost always these destructive behaviors are hidden in that kind of behavior. And yeah, we, you know, when we can look at it, like. Like you were saying, they look at people like objects. Yes. So when I'm being treated more like an object instead of as a person or a partner, then I can look and say, okay, out of humility, honesty, accountability, and willingness to connect, they were missing humility and a willingness to connect for sure. Maybe even accountability, you know, and, and so to go through and to figure out in those situations. What was missing in those four key things because we can get lost in the weeds of arguing about the details when in truth It's like what was the root of it and then we can set and protect ourselves based on that Because those things are so confusing to figure out it shows up differently It just does and it is painful is incredibly painful

Kristin: 1:01:24

And that is a perfect place where having community makes a difference and to be able to not that you want to broadcast your business always I love that you're broadcasting your business because somebody needs to right for everyone, but not everyone is going to have a podcast and write a book and tell their story big. But you have to have some people. You have to have a core group of people that you could tell all of the things to, and they can help reflect that truth back to you. And to be able to see, you know, when a lot of times abusers and not, I'm not saying that everyone is trying to be an abuser if they, if this is a compulsion that they're struggling with, but isolation is a key part of abuse.

Jeni: 1:02:06

It is.

Kristin: 1:02:07

Because. then gaslighting is more effective because you don't have anyone else to reflect truth back at you. So this is a place where community is absolutely critical to be able to say, okay, this is what's happening. Help me discern where the truth is. If you are in a place where you cannot see it anymore. So I think that's really important. I think that's, that's so important again. So I just want to ask you, if we had a billboard somewhere up in the world, one of my favorite questions, you know, that everyone in the world is going to see, what message do you think the world needs right now more than ever?

Jeni: 1:02:42

Jesus is the answer, whatever it is. He's in everything. And when we see that he's not in something, we can leave it alone. But Jesus is the answer. He is the solution. He can be found in therapy and he can be found in equine therapy. It's a thing. And he can be found in EMDR and he can be found in 12 steps and he can be found anywhere, you know And really that he is the source of the healing. He will expedite, he can expedite, I won't say what he will do, but he can expedite it. That he is powerful and he, he does things that we can't do on our own. We just can't. He's such a good God. Jesus is the answer.

Kristin: 1:03:30

That is a great message. And, and I love that you brought up, you know, if I am also Christian, that Jesus is the answer for me, but I have found in all of the conversations and friendships I've had with women of other faiths, that when you can lean into faith in your higher power, and if to you that's not Jesus, totally, that there is power in reaching out to that higher being, even if we don't see it all in the same way. Yes. When we come from we're it. Like, humans are it. There is less power there. That higher power makes a real difference in our lives.

Jeni: 1:04:12

I should have probably prefaced it, by the way, by saying, for me, Jesus is the answer. Because I do have space, that people have, you know, the, a God of their own understanding. And even in my own faith, I have a different understanding of who God is than, the person next to me, you know, like that is so individual and so personal. So God, how about we just say God is the answer for, for people, the God of understanding. I think

Kristin: 1:04:44

that's beautiful and it's okay to say that that is your answer. There is nothing wrong with that, you know, but I think I find that that just when we build each other up with faith. There's power in that in doing it alone and in doing it in community and being able to say our creator. I have a friend who calls. Who likes to say, you know, you know, in a more open way, the giver of our breath, we might find that differently, but we all can, can say the giver of our breath, there is power in acknowledging the giver of our breath and inviting the giver of our breath to come in and heal us because they give us breath in the first place and they can help us to find that healing.

Jeni: 1:05:28

That's so beautiful. Yeah.

Kristin: 1:05:30

And do you have any other final thoughts that you'd want to share with our listeners?

Jeni: 1:05:34

Just anybody who might be struggling, I just want you to know with betrayal trauma in particular, you're not alone. You're not crazy. There's resources that can help. You're worth the time, effort, and energy to find that healing and people will walk with you. And you know, it can take time to figure out who those people are. And sometimes we have to shut some gates and be like, they just really don't get it, you know, but there are people who will, there are people who do understand they're worth finding, you are worth the effort.

Kristin: 1:06:10

Thank you. I think that's so beautiful. And we'll put links in the show notes to like your book, to everything you've mentioned to, you know, I say as a lifeline, like just all of the different pieces so that if anyone's coming in here and they're like, okay, I am alone and I don't even know where to get started. There will just be some options of links that you can click to find some ways to find those connections in that healing. So thank you so much for your time and I'm just grateful that you're willing to be a voice. To talk about this because it's one of those things that not a lot of people are talking about publicly, but a lot of people are experiencing privately and you are giving voice, you're doing a very important work to give voice to all of the people silently suffering and to say, there is hope, there is healing, there is community, there is connection. It's going to be okay.

Jeni: 1:07:06

What generous, generous words. Thank you for having me honored to be here.

1:07:11

Outro Music

Kristin: 1:07:15

Okay, so I hope that you could see what I mean that there was still. So much goodness in this episode, so much hope and light, despite the difficulties of the subject matter and just the deep betrayal wounds and how hard that is. But there is always hope. There is always a way to press forward and community makes such a difference. I am grateful that you are listening, that you are part of my community, that you are building me up as I explore community through this podcast. It really has been such a gift. And I hope that if this. If this makes a difference for you, if this makes your life better by listening to some of these episodes that you will please take the next step and share it, share it on your social media, share it privately with a friend and or leave me a review or a rating or something that lets me know that this is adding value to your life. Thank you for being part of the Solidarity Sister community. We needed you.