Solidarity Sister!
Solidarity Sister!
Building Bridges Through Faith Transitions With Evelyn Hornbarger | Ep 34
If you are currently, or have ever been part of a faith community, you know it takes effort to hold onto relationships during a faith transition, but it can be done. Listen in as Evelyn Hornbarger and I lean into community building together despite the fact that our faith journeys are leading us in different directions. I'm so grateful for Evelyn's love and energy. I invite you to connect with her on FB before she posts inspiring messages from some generous authorities in her life over the weekend of April 6-7.
Evelyn's Personal Page: https://www.facebook.com/evelyn.hornbarger.7
Generous Conference: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556115256927
About Evelyn: I grew up in rural New Mexico. I studied how to get married as a Mormon in Thatcher, AZ and then again at BYU where I graduated. After marriage, I went to NMSU for a master's degree in public health, while making babies. I found my way through windy western Nebraska following my husband's career, and I currently live in San Antonio, Texas with my five children and husband. I am re-evaluating all of my life choices, and I need a nap. I like fiber arts, poetry, and reinventing myself after religious deconstruction. I love a backstory, so tell me yours.
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If you're a woman who appreciates connecting with other women in community with vulnerability and compassion, please join us in the Solidarity Sister! Facebook group at:
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The Solidarity Sister! Book Club has begun and runs through the end of May. We're reading Brené Brown's Gifts of Imperfection over a period of 15 weeks, and connecting via Zoom and Marco Polo. Find more info in the FB group. Sign up at https://forms.gle/ZHpfhd8hwCpw6NL2A
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IG: @solidaritysister.kristinwilson
I think one thing that I didn't realize until I was on the other side is I remember everything that people have said about people who have left. So I know what you think about me. I know what my, I know what my mom thinks. I've heard what she says about people. I know what friends think, so I think watching what we say and how we honor people who leave and be respectful leaves doors open if someone else who is sitting in that room with you who you're now confiding in because you know you're mormoning together and like oh like just think like what if that person one day leaves well what are they going to remember about this conversation that you had? How are they gonna remember that you valued and honored the person that you're talking about, that they're not in the room?
Kristin:Hello and welcome to another episode of Solidarity Sister with Kristen Wilson. And I'm really excited for you to finally get to listen to this episode. I have been holding it specifically for this week. It's a conversation that I had with my friend Evelyn. And I have been watching Evelyn's faith journey. Which has taken her out of the church that I belong to, a church which she has been a stalwart member for her whole life, until more recently. And it really caused me to ponder, how do we stay connected to people when we have met within faith communities? And one of the people in the relationship has a faith transition of one kind or another. How do we still bridge that gap? What can we do better? There has been a movement of people leaving organized religion. For any of my friends out there who are religious, I anticipate that you are experiencing this. Either you are the one leaving, or you have friends who are leaving. This isn't something that's unique to my specific church. It's just something that's going on right now. And for me, Coming from the Christian perspective that I have, Jesus really taught us all about love and community and showing up in spaces where it wasn't always expected. Where he was willing to sit with people that others would think was, would be unclean, that he would tell a story about the good Samaritan, even though the Jews had a very strong dislike for the Samaritans. Jesus was a lot about building connections, building bridges. And certainly when we come to a faith transition, how do we stay connected? What if it's within our own family unit? What if it's our children? What if it's our siblings? What if it's our parents? How do we still maintain relationships? And that's what I really wanted to look at with Evelyn. And I love, I love her heart. Her heart is so good. And I cried with her during this episode. And it was very sweet to be able to have this time together. And I hope that it's something that you will benefit from. And you'll see at the end of this episode, I want to give a shout out to something that's coming up with Evelyn, her generous authorities and tell you a little bit about that. So here we go.
Outro Music Hello and welcome to another episode of Solidarity Sister. I'm here with an internet friend Evelyn who I'm actually getting to have the first face to face conversation, even though it's on Zoom, but we have had some great exchanges online so far and I really love the energy that she brings to the world and the kindness and compassion that she has and we're going to be talking about maintaining. a sense of community during faith transitions, how to stay connected to our friends when we have these times of changing faith, and just being able to still love each other, no matter where we're falling in our belief systems or what's going on at the time. So Evelyn, tell me, how are you doing for real?
Evelyn:No, for real. So I am not an expert in this. But I'm happy to have the conversation and I do have some perspective. So I'm a recently resigned member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. I still consider myself Mormon at heart. I'm a little Mormon muffin, because that's the tin I was baked in and the ingredients I was made. But I have exited the tin for the moment. But like deep pioneer heritage. Family and friends, all the things that come with being Mormon. The little elements that led to my departure. I have queer children and difficulty reconciling the theology with my current reality and then problems with church history. Cause I didn't read BH Roberts when I was 12.
Kristin:So I am still currently a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints that we're talking about. This is my faith and I was the weird kid. I read all of the standard works and in LDS. theology. The standard works include the Old Testament and the New Testament. We usually use the King James Version. Also, the Book of Mormon, where our Mormon nickname comes from, and the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants those altogether. And I had read them all by the time I was 12, even the whole Old Testament. And B. H. Roberts was an early church member who recorded like volumes, multiple thick book volumes of church history. And when I was like, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, like I was the weird little kid who would go get those out of our family's bookcase and read that. So I knew so much about church history that pretty much 99 percent of people were not reading that age. I've never met anyone else who did that. So, yes. So Evelyn's coming to learn things that are new and that people weren't doing that. We didn't have the internet. And a lot of families, I think, did have copies of Church History on their bookshelves, but it's like nobody read them, right? So, that's kind of where we're going from. And I would love to hear more about like what your experience has been with community in terms of I I think that's one of the hardest parts from my understanding, and not just in the LDS faith, any of my friends who have left a church community. There's just so many layers to it, and community is actually a huge part of that. So community
Evelyn:was difficult even as a nuanced member, I think. So I think some of the struggle remained. Like on either side of it because I felt I was hearing things in lessons or talks that was sitting with me differently than the person next to me, you know what I mean? Like we're all getting the messaging and then processing it in our own way. So the community struggle started even before resigning. But I have such a love for people and a belief that community is part of being human. I haven't left all of my Mormon beliefs behind, and I think there's something really beautiful about the fact that we are born into families that are these imperfect structures of just people muddling along and supporting each other the best we can. And that feels divine or connected or loving in some way. So it's, it's a testament that We do need each other, and it's important. So leaving my ward community, my first step was to just take a break. I think I, what's the term? What's the term I used? Taking a step back. Okay, we've heard people use that one before. Taking a step back, because that leaves yourself open to all kinds of opportunities. Maybe you'll take a step back in, or take a step further back, or wherever the steps go. And I missed, I, I still miss, I miss my sisters. I shared so much with them. I have a transgender child who came out about the same time I had a baby. He was my oldest, my baby's my youngest. And those sisters carried me through topsy turvy, tricky time the best they could. With meals and love, and they listened to me and just loved me. And I could say, I could say, I did, and I'm, I've never been one to hold back, and I would just say all the things in Relief Society, and And my emotional resilience group and shared, shared difficult things with me and they just loved me. They loved me through it. So one of the things that led me out too was kind of being at odds with the male leadership. But I never felt that with my female leadership. I still just love my Relief Society president and love the sisters who have ministered to me. It is interesting though, not showing up on Sunday. I don't ever see them. We don't cross paths. Mormons are very busy people, very, very anxiously engaged. And I know that I, that they would always welcome me in their space, but I'm not really comfortable going there. And I think there could be a bridge to be made and maybe them coming to mine or finding a neutral location so that we could continue loving each other, even though church isn't for me right now. What do you want to say? I've said a lot of things.
Kristin:No, I actually, I, I love listening to this and and I'm crying with you because I love the beauty in the community that you've experienced. And I also understand that like Mormons are very busy people kind of a thing. Because I think about for myself, the last couple of years, like I really self isolated, which is part of doing this podcast, is recognizing that I pretty much rejected all community around me. And I was miserable, but, and I think parts of my life would have still been miserable because it was just a lot of really hard trials, but they were more miserable because I was bullheaded enough to do it alone. It doesn't, you don't necessarily have these connections if you don't have a date and time already regularly scheduled. Like even outside of church, if there are moms that I've connected with because my kid was on a dance team or a soccer team or whatever, I'd have to get outta the car and soccer practice and come and meet with them every week. It is so hard as moms to just plan a girl's night or just plan a lunch and get everyone together. And why aren't we doing that more? Hmm. Like, we need it. We need to prioritize that more because I, I don't know, these women obviously we don't live in the same place. But I would imagine they miss you.
Evelyn:They have invited me to things Mormons in a group, a lot of Mormon women in a group. I can tell you what they talk about. They talk about their callings, their kids who are going on dates, who are going to FSY, who are going to girls camp, who are going on their missions. Frustrations maybe with ministering, like, it's all Mormon based. And as someone who has opted out of that community, it is triggering. It's not comfortable for me to show up to the playgroup anymore. Or talking about general conference or it's like all the things that create the fabric of Mormon women's lives. if I'm going to show up authentically to me, I'm going to be like, Oh, that talk actually made me very angry. And here are all the reasons why, but like, why would I ruin their happy? Like, I don't want to ruin their lives. I don't want to tell them, but I also need to be me. So I have found that one on one is much more accessible than like, Oh, let's invite Evelyn to the like, I'm not gonna show up. I've I've driven, looked in, and then driven away. Cause I just, I can't do it.
Kristin:And see, I, I have not, I don't even go to Relief Society activities hardly ever. Like I haven't experienced that same degree of sisterhood as you have. Even in here because wow, we're just going to be emotional today. My goodness, people are just laying it all out there. But I go little snippets of that, but it's always been one on one and it's. I've always been like more few and far between, but I think that's more me. I think that's more like my own personal struggle to show up in a way when I wasn't feeling at my best. Like, I'm still working at 45 to overcome that. And so I haven't been in those circles where we're having those conversations about who's going to FSY and who's going to whatever as much because I'm not showing up to the Relief Society activity. And I'm, and I'm not really into superficial conversation. So if I run into someone one on one, then we're actually talking about all the nitty gritty stuff because that's just where we are. But I think I wanted to have more of those like bigger connections. I just haven't, that's just not been in my wheelhouse as much. So it's so interesting to me to be able to have this conversation. And this is why I love to have these interviews, because It's, it's like that analogy of like the elephant, right, and you have all these blind men who are all at a different place, and they're saying, no, it's like this. And someone else is saying, no, it's like this. And sometimes I think we do that in our faith. And we're like, no, my church experience was like this. And the person who's like at the hind leg versus who's at the tusk, they're like, no, it's hard. It's this. And then the person who's at the hind leg is like, I don't know what you're talking about. Because that is not my experience, but we're all talking about the same elephant. And so I think it's so valuable to be able to have these connections so that we learn. Because I get a bigger sense of the grief that you're feeling. Because I think you had more invested into the Sisterhood of Relief Society. And so the walking away feels like, and I, Primary is what we call, so Relief Society, for anyone listening who's not a member of, of the LDS church or familiar with it, Relief Society is the women's organization. It's one of, if not the largest women's organization in the world. I don't know. It's super big. Everyone is in Relief Society if you're 18 and older and you're a woman. That's kind of automatically. And then Primary is the children's organization. And I generally hang out in Primary. And I love Primary. And I love being with the children. But then I haven't made an effort over the years to go to the Relief Society activities or be, if I'm put in there because that's where my calling is, I do my calling until I can go back to Primary. And I'm just waiting to go back to Primary. So, you know.
Evelyn:That might be a lack on the part of the activities too, because an assigned activity isn't the same as showing up with authenticity with people you want to share with. So, if I'm reading you correctly, you don't like fakey, fakey times. And if they're like, let's all
Kristin:make a craft, I'm like, no thank you. I will be washing my hair that day. No, actually, not even that. I also just am very busy. I have seven children still at home. I have kids to do competition dance. I have kids in the rise up children's choir that are driving to practices, you know, three kids in three different choirs that are 45 minutes, 35 to minutes to an hour and 15 minute drive, depending on the day and where we're going and each way. And so I'd have to make such an effort and I'm like, it's hard for me to do that. And you don't
Evelyn:know if it'll pay off. I don't know.
Kristin:Yeah. Right. And because of the way that I have been in my life, if I wasn't feeling good that day myself, like, that I could show up and be, present myself in a way where I'm there to hold space for other people, then I'm not going. Because I am learning how to let other people hold space for me and that isn't, that is a personal deficiency. You're
Evelyn:learning how to be
Kristin:vulnerable. I am. And what better way than to have a podcast that you put out for the whole world, anyone in the whole world, even people who don't like you can listen to it. Happy day. Here we are. That's so
Evelyn:true. Wow. That's a brave act on your part. Good job. Yeah. It's ADHD.
Kristin:Go big or go home.
Evelyn:So relate.
Kristin:Yes. So I did
Evelyn:make effort to build community and show up vulnerably and allow people to help me. I had, I had learned that lesson a little earlier with having depression that I needed people to lift me a lot. And so that did help build those friendships and connections.
Kristin:So are you feeling connected to any of those women? Do you text each other? Do you Marco Polo? Do you go out to lunch with any of them? Like maybe, you know, the group is not working because it's not working. I have one
Evelyn:writer friend who's also in my ward and we still chat and then I have a couple of neighbors who I could, like I could, but it's just harder. They have little kids. They're like busy stay at home moms and I don't think we have figured out what to talk about or like what comes next in our friendship after the church thing.
Kristin:So where are you finding community now?
Evelyn:With people who are like me, who have also left and who are also uncomfortable around Mormons. So I have, so like, I have a sister in law. Who is divorced from my husband who is a former member and I like love talking to her because she gets it I can be like more amazing.
Kristin:I just process that as you have a sister in law divorced from your husband from your husband. Not my husband. Okay, so his
Evelyn:brother, my brother was married, my brother was married and they're divorced.
Kristin:Okay. Yes. Okay.
Evelyn:She's gay. So, okay. But I can talk to her and be like, Mormons are icky and she's like Mormons are icky And she gets it. So that's where my community is I don't want to stay in the mormons are icky phase, but she like so she can understand my discomfort Well,
Kristin:and I think it's important to have people who can see you where you are and where you feel like they can hold space for you, like whatever that is. Because it is hard to go into the Relief Society group who's all hanging out, even if they're just having dinner, and be like, you're all icky. You know, like. I know, they're gonna
Evelyn:know. They're going to know what I said,
Kristin:but I but I think it's so important for us to understand where you're coming from because I don't want to lose my friendships with people who choose to leave. and, you know, at this time, I felt like this is where God wants me to be. And I'm on my own personal faith journey. And I am unwilling to determine for other people who stay or who leave whether or not they're following God's journey for them or not because I'm not privy to that. That is like outside of my scope. So I'm just going to live life assuming that you are doing the best you can and coming up with the best solutions for your family, even if they look different than mine. And that we, day by day, will follow our journeys wherever they lead. That's
Evelyn:a really great, like, a lot of tools in your toolkit to allow you to get there. Because other people are, like, afraid. Like, I know that I, I am off putting. So, like, for family members who are still deeply believing they're afraid, they're not gonna have me forever. Or, so, like, it's an either or, like, Evelyn's wrong and she's doomed or whatever. Or, Evelyn has a valid place and what does that mean for me? Like, maybe she has some good points and that those two positions are super uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to, to cast final judgment on my soul and it's uncomfortable to think maybe she has a point and it's the right and proper place for her. Like those are pretty heavy choices that I think are really uncomfortable for people to hold. And so it's just better to like. Like, maybe I don't even want to engage with that, and I'll just, like, go hang out with my Mormon friends who I'm super comfortable with, and we can all say the same things, and we all know we're going to the Celestial Kingdom together, and yay!
Kristin:I, I like what you point out about fear and I think that for me, I've traveled this road a little bit because not all of my children are active in the faith and not like, none of them have had their names removed, but I have kids who don't go to church and who don't think they believe what I believe. And the one belief that I've really tried to be like, you guys, I know I can't make you believe anything, but if I could, if I could. Drop a belief in your brain and make it stay. The belief would be that you are, you have a heavenly father and a mother and a savior who love you no matter what. That's the one thing. If I could give you one thing, that's the thing I would make you believe, but I can't even make them believe that. I can't make them believe
Evelyn:anything. I think the transition, like the other wording for that, that might be really good is that you are inherently of worth. You have inherent divinity within you that is outside of.
Kristin:Like, I want that for them, regardless of whether they go to this church or a different church where they pray or they don't pray. I want them to be connected to that understanding, and, but I can't even do that, right? And so, for me, it became a place where I, as a parent, had to flip. Am I going to parent out of faith or out of fear? And you know what? I actually have so much faith in a loving God. That sees the hearts of my kids that sees your heart that sees my heart and wants the best for us. that I just trust that it's going to be okay, no matter what. I don't know what that's going to look like. I don't know what the next life is going to look like. I don't know what the next week is going to look like, but I'm just going to trust that every time we come to a situation, none of them were a surprise to God. Like sometimes like something really shocking happens or I get a phone call and something's happened with a kid or, you know, when my husband was in the ICU with COVID, whatever, where I'm like, I did not see this coming, but God did. Like he saw this coming and so it's going to be okay. I don't know what okay is going to look like, but like we are going to make it through this and by having that level of faith with my kids, like they have to walk their own life path. And sometimes they're going to screw up, and sometimes they're going to make decisions that were not good ones, and they're going to have to move forward from it, and same with me. Sometimes I'm going to look back and be like, why did I do that? And it just needs to be okay for us to make our own mistakes, and allow the people outside of us to make their own mistakes, but also recognize that what looks like a mistake to us might not actually be. That might actually be the right thing for them, and not make that judgment on it. My oldest daughter at one point had kind of crashed in high school, and it had been a rough time. And then she wanted to take this early morning summer class. We are not morning people. And I could not figure out why she would do this, and I literally thought it was like the dumbest idea. And I felt like she was still kind of really vulnerable and trying to come out of some difficult things. And, but it was important to her. So I was like, you know what? It's her life. You know, she was like 14 or 15. She wasn't super old, but old enough where I'm like, she has to make that. It was the best thing for her that summer. It actually was. I was wrong. She was making the best choice for her. And that was a really good lesson for me to remember. And I think that goes with our friends too. And I know that won't be popular with people who feel like, but like, you have to give people the space to follow their own spiritual journey.
Evelyn:I think that's the thing that needs to be true on both sides, like my side too, leaving trust that it is okay and good for you to stay in and that I can love and support you in that. As you can, gosh, can love and support me and trust me that this is where I need to be to, and they're both valid.
Kristin:They are, and there's something I saw that's gone around Facebook a little bit, I don't know who wrote it, I'm sure you've seen it, but someone's sharing about, like, don't pray for me to come back to church, but pray this and this and this. which I loved, which was essentially not just praying for the specific outcome, right? But, but praying for that person to have strength, to have courage, to have divine understanding, and I don't remember what it said, but I think that's a good lesson for us. Pray for that person to be able to lean in to their own understanding. And to be doing the work the best they can to be in harmony, you know, God, or for people who don't believe in God, the universe, whatever, like you feel it in your, in your body when you're not in alignment with what the next step on your path is. And to trust that our paths aren't going to look the same and we just have to love each other anyway. That's the best way. And I look at, it's been hard for me to watch some of the parents that I know whose kids have left. That have just like shunned them and like been so awful to them and I'm like, is that what Jesus would do? I'm sorry, it's not what Jesus would do. Like Jesus would not belittle and shame someone who didn't go to church. He would love them where they are and try and help them see the good that's in them. Because I think when you connect with that, you are kinder and gentler and a better influence on the world.
Evelyn:It's interesting to me that the theology of Being with our family forever would lead to shunning or a disregard of a child in this life. Like, how, how incorrect that feels. How incongruent with love and truth. And it, it feels cruel that that would be the outcome of a theology that values family and togetherness above all else. Like, Great. Let's do that now. Let's just apply that
Kristin:here. I 100 percent agree. And I think that not only does it feel cruel, it doesn't even make sense to me, right? Like it's, it's, it's not even productive. My oldest daughter did say to me once so I'm going to fast forward and I'm going to tell a little bit of her story. And I try to not tell my kids stories too much, but at one point she came to us, 8th or 9th grade and she said, I feel like I need a break from church. But I can't because I'm the oldest child and everyone's looking at me and I have to go and I was like, let me pray and ponder that I was like, I did not anticipate coming to this place in my parenting, but here we are. So let's see, like, give me some space and the answer that I received. was really about honoring her own agency and giving her space on her own journey. And so we went and we turned to her and we said, you know what? You don't have to go. We're, you know, this is, this is how it's going to be. And she was like, well, what are you going to tell the other kids? And I said, this is what I'm going to tell him. I'm going to pull them all together. And I'm going to say, Kate's decided she needs a break from church. And our job right now is not to worry about. You know, whether she's right, whether she's wrong, whatever, our job is just to love her like we did, whether she was going or not. Like, that's what we're doing here. And then, we didn't really talk about it much anymore. We kind of, it just was a thing. And the one thing I did ask her is, I said, I want to reserve the right to invite you to things from time to time. But if I invite you And you say no, then that will be the end of it, you know, it's not going to be like, are you sure? Would you, do you really want to come? Well, hey, like, no, I'm going to just honor that. And the other piece I said was, you know, if, if somebody's speaking in church in our family or has a musical number, I would ask that you come to support that individual. And that was kind of the agreement. And I just, to me. I can't imagine having done it another way. And she said at one point later, she said, if you would have made that like a sticking point, like an ultimatum, like you have to do this, you have to go to seminary, which is if you don't live in Utah, Idaho, it's an early morning church class. And at the time we lived in Illinois which is basically like Sunday school every day when you're in high school, you study the different books of scripture. But if you made me do this and you made me do all these things, I think when I would have turned 18, I would have left and not come back. But we actually are pretty well connected. And we have a pretty good relationship despite being in different spaces from a spiritual nature. You know, we're not believing necessarily the same things or doing the same things, but I love her. And I just can't imagine doing otherwise. It boggles my mind. I can't understand it. I don't know. And I think part of it is just really that learning to turn faith over to God. That she was his first. And I just have to love her. And then they can work the rest out. And she'll figure it out on her own. Whatever she's figuring out. She'll figure out her own path.
Evelyn:You like believed in her growth over her following like this prescribed method. You trusted her.
Kristin:That's cool. And it means that sometimes You know, she will make mistakes, but if she stayed in it, someday she would too. Like, that's the thing. That's the human experience. So, like, we were here to make mistakes. It's what you do afterwards that I think matters way more than the actual mistake. It's how you learn to own up or to overcome or to, you know, it's not the mistake as much. It's the aftermath. And I think really defines people.
Evelyn:Another painful part of my Mormon experience is the Lack of authority with being a woman and the lack of being in positions of policy making changes or in the room where decisions are made or contributing to conversations and another cool thing that you offered your daughter was power to say no, I didn't, I wouldn't have been given that same privilege at that time in my life like my parents would have been really uncomfortable with me saying no, and That's like the most power you have a lot of times as a woman is to just say no. And you gave that to her so young. That's super cool. Good job. Good job. Momming.
Kristin:I don't know. I'm, I'm sure I've made plenty of mom mistakes, but at the heart of it, we just are all doing the best we can as moms. I look back that I'm like, I wish I would have done that better. And if I'd known better. I would have, but I think that's the beauty also of the human experience is that we can learn and we can do better. So what would you want people to know? So people like in your ward or people in wherever, like if you are sitting where I am, where you feel like your place is to stay and you have friends that are leaving, what can we do? to show up better, to show up more loving, to show up more Christ like and have a connection, or where can we honor if the person leaving, because I have had a couple of people who have kind of more cut me off. Most of the time it's worked okay, but not always. But what would you want us to know? How can we do better?
Evelyn:I think one thing that I didn't realize until I was on the other side is I remember everything that people have said about people who have left. So I know what you think about me. I know what my, I know what my mom thinks. I've heard what she says about people. I know what friends think, so I think watching what we say and how we honor people who leave and be respectful leaves doors open if someone else who is sitting in that room with you who you're now confiding in because you know you're mormoning together and like oh like just think like what if that person one day leaves well what are they going to remember about this conversation that you had? How are they gonna remember that you valued and honored the person that you're talking about, that they're not in the room? Oh, I think that's
Kristin:a really good message. what could we do in terms of building bridges and not letting the whole thing go? Like, I don't wanna let go of people that I love. Also, I find it interesting that you said you were off putting, because I didn't know you until kind of more when you were in the, you know, I think I got to know you more as you were leaving. I mean, I really like you, so
Evelyn:You must go into those spaces and find people, though. I don't know, I'm like I
Kristin:didn't notice that. I don't know, is it me? Like, I did not notice that. Well, here's the other
Evelyn:part. I am charming, and I am likable, and I am loving. And that's uncomfortable, too. Because if you're true believing, and you're seeing all these good qualities in me, and maybe the Holy Ghost hasn't left me. Maybe I am working through it, but I'm not on the covenant path. It's just a cognitive dissonance that not everyone can hold space for at this time. Like, probably most Probably most can't and I and I do understand that but I'm not like I'm the exact same person I am literally the same person who is sitting in Relief Society singing next to you six months ago like still me Still love my kids still feeling inspired. I'm still like silly and I'm the exact same person. It's just I had a piece of paper that said I would like to resign my membership. It's clerical. It's not character.
Kristin:I'm going to push back a little bit on that. You're the exact same person in that. I think we all change. Like, I think we're all kind of on this journey of becoming. So I would say that I think you're still the same quality of person. I don't think that has changed. I don't think you like your true divine nature and character has changed. But I think that you are evolving. And you are seeing the world a little bit differently and that there is change there. I mean, I feel like I have changed tremendously over the years because 20 year old me could not have held this conversation with you. Like the world was black and white for me. Does that make sense? Yes,
Evelyn:I do see what you mean. I see what you mean. So, and the experience that I have now being someone on the outside is not the same experiences that I had when I was attending. So you're right, I have changed, I have grown. It's, I have more experiences, and I've had more people share their stories with me, and I have more information. So I guess, in a way, You're right.
Kristin:But I don't think your character your quality of being a person or your worth or any, I don't think any of that's changed. Right. But I do, and I can see that. It's really hard. I don't know what, I wanted this episode to have this like perfect answer for how we build this bridge and we can all just like have more love and harmony in the world.
Evelyn:I think being vulnerable is the answer though. I think that is the answer. I think being vulnerable and curious about people, I think that is how we build bridges and we just read more Brene Brown. We all just need more Brene.
Kristin:For real though, actually in this next week we're going to start reading Gifts of Imperfection in my Facebook group because I need a reread and we all, like, I just assume, I wish that every high schooler had a semester long, like, let's get rid of something that maybe isn't as important and do a semester on Brene Brown, like, for everyone. That everyone would be a better adult if they were given the Brené Brown goodness.
Evelyn:And then shame kills connection too. That's true. If I have it or if you have it, it's really going to inhibit our ability to build community. I think
Kristin:that's true. And I think that one of the things. That you have to accept in building these kinds of bridges. is you have to learn to be uncomfortable, which is uncomfortable. And I think about a post that you made is you, you've made some really fun family history posts, but one I'm thinking of in particular about, I think it's a great grandma who was like 15, like married her teacher and he was 28, 24. Never
Evelyn:before she was 15. They eloped on the day of the school picnic. They just didn't show up and they were off getting married. Did you see the latest one I posted on that though? There's a follow
Kristin:up. Her sister was like even like a bigger gap and also went after her teacher. So like whatever, apparently that was like important there. But in my response there, and I thought about this and I think it applies here. The thought I had was my brain is seeking for a reason to justify this because I'm actually just so uncomfortable. And so I think that that can happen. when you have a friend leave the church or a friend stay in the church. The brain actually doesn't like to be uncomfortable. So it is seeking a reason, you know, in the case of people who are still in, it's seeking a reason for the person who left about how wrong or how bad or how whatever broken or whatever you want to say they are so that you can be comfortable where you are. And if you leave, Then you're seeking a reason for why the people who stayed, you can be angry at them, they're awful, they were judgmental, they, even if they really weren't, because the brain is just seeking to feel comfortable where you want to go. And I really had to like sit with that a minute and be like, I really don't want to sit with this 15 year old girl and 24 year old teacher. Like I am so uncomfortable. Like,
Evelyn:this is. Without them doing that, I would not be me. And, and they had a long, loving relationship with many children. It is uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable that true consent couldn't have been had with that power dynamic. Also, they like, had a family and like, loved each other. Like, it's, both things are true and it is so uncomfortable. Can't really reconcile it.
Kristin:And I think that that is where we build the bridges. Is we leave space and lean in and to learn to be able to look at things that don't reconcile perfectly because they just don't because if you want to look at it, it can be hard to reconcile. Well, God put me here and God put you there. How do I reconcile that? Shouldn't it be that one of us is wrong and one of us is right? Ooh, I was just
Evelyn:reading this thing on Uplift Kids, they like, have little things, and we were, it was talking about, I don't remember, but it was about breathing, and the, the gift of life is that you breathe in, and you breathe out, if all you did was breathe out, you would be sick, if all you did was breathe in, like you would die. You have to have both and maybe you're the breathing in and I'm the breathing out and the thing that happens in between is the thing we need. And
Kristin:we have to be willing to do that. I think we need that. I don't know. I need that. Maybe, maybe not everyone does. I need diversity in my life. Moving to Utah was so hard for me, because I was like, are you kidding me? And I felt very divinely inspired to move here. And I never wanted to live in Utah. I'm from California. I had a policy where I did not date boys from Utah or Idaho. At BYU, where like, so many boys are from Utah. And I was like, hard no for me boy. Like I am, you know, and I made one exception. Oh
Evelyn:no, he was the
Kristin:one. He was. Honestly, I'm gonna pull a plug in for VocalPoint. I don't know if you know what VocalPoint is. We just went to their concert on Saturday. My husband was in VocalPoint. And he said, like, we met, he was in my best friend's ward, we met, and he was like, you know, I sing in this group called VocalPoint. And I'd never heard of them. So I was like, so? You're from Utah. So nothing you say actually even matters and which is
Evelyn:saying it to you.
Kristin:And then he was like, we're doing a show at the Cougar Eat on Thursday. You should come and the Cougar Eat is, you know, like the food court. And so I happened to have a break between classes and it wasn't inconvenient. So I was like, I'll go. And he sang a lot of the leads that year. And he is really, really gifted. And so I was kind of like, you know, like, okay, like one. One date. And here we are, you know, all these years later, but I was definitely closed off to that until that moment. But that was, that was the right path for me. We've been married 25 years and we have eight kids. And he still sings and he will tell people she married me because God gave me this gift. They're like, you're such a good singer. You know, you're so good at this. He just was Archibald Craven in the secret garden a few months ago. And he's like, yeah, God gave this to me. So my wife would marry me. I don't know. So I look at now I've come a long way. I was very close minded. And I couldn't imagine living in Utah and then coming to Utah. I like having diversity. I like learning from other people because I feel like it makes me a better person. And maybe that's part of why I have a hard time leaning in to the really Mormon y spaces. Because they feel too closed off to me and growing up in California, I had my church friends, but then I had my cheerleading friends, but then I had the friends I played softball with and then I had like you kind of, you know, and the ones I did student council with whatever and they weren't all the same people and I liked that and then coming to this place where it is. Just a higher percentage, a higher density. That was harder for me. So maybe I just seek out those diverse faiths. So when I see someone, I really look for the energy in people more than anything else, whether they're married or divorced or whether they're in a faith or not, whatever. I'm looking for like the people who I can see really love others and who are trying to reach out. And I don't care about the rest quite as much. And I feel like that gives me a, I don't know, that's where I find community. So maybe that's why you said you were off putting, but I was like, no, no, I actually wanted to connect with you. I think
Evelyn:that's probably your, one of your spiritual gifts is like seeing the beauty and diversity and maybe finding the people on the, on the on the borders or the boundaries or the shadows.
Kristin:There's some really awesome people there. I don't want them to feel like they have to be there. Sometimes you choose that for yourself because I think you need that in a season maybe. And maybe you don't. Maybe I'm just justifying my own doing that. I think about it. Maybe. I don't know. But I think we could do a better job of pulling those people out and still seeing the goodness in them. What are people doing that do you think is helpful to support you?
Evelyn:really like telling my story and having a voice. So just letting people allow me to talk is really important to me and helps me feel loved and seen.
Kristin:I think that's really beautiful. And I think that's something that any of us can do. It's okay to listen to a conversation or to listen to someone telling their story without having to judge it or to do anything more but be curious. And just learn and let that experience, even if it doesn't mirror your experience, you don't have to say that always. You can just in your mind be like, I had a hind leg and this person was at the trunk. We were having different experiences. We're different sides of the elephant. This is my opportunity to learn what the other side of the elephant was like. And I wasn't there. So I can't say that they're wrong. That is valid. That is their valid experience. And I, I think that's. That's a good thing to remember. What would you say to someone, if there's anything that we haven't talked about, that wanted to do better, doesn't really know how?
Evelyn:I think one thing people could learn about are the different stages of faith, and that would help give perspective to people on any part of the faith paradigm. That makes a lot of sense. Janna Spangler just did a podcast with Richard Osler that was really good. And it was Listen, Learn, and Love, I think is Papa Osler's podcast. That was a good one.
Kristin:I put a link to that in the show notes too, that that would be a good place to go. And from both sides, I mean, is there anything that you feel like you're learning that helps you to build bridges?
Evelyn:Yes, I, I'm learning that I need to heal my wounds so that I don't take my anger out on, like, good, good Mormon people that I just called icky. Sorry. Like, that's not, that's not my place to judge it or to label, like, An entire innocent population that are doing good thing, you know, and then I was an icky Mormon.
Kristin:Just
Evelyn:like heal my wounds so that I don't put anger unnecessarily back on the institution or organization that did hurt me. My, my wounds are valid. My anger is valid. My concerns are valid, but to heal that so that I'm not like, Being violent.
Kristin:I think a lot of what I'm hearing you say is that we, we both need to come at things with doing our own personal work, like on both sides, like the personal work might look a little bit different on the side of people who are staying in that organized faith, whatever it is. To be able to increase some faith in God and in people and letting people have their journey and being able to make space for that discomfort and lean in with curiosity and recognize that there are some valid wounds over there and to suspend the judgment and then on the side of those who are leaving to be able to lean in and do that healing work in such a way that you're not taking. whatever wounds, traumas and upset and turning it back on people who actually are well intentioned who are trying, who love you and want to do better and have that more open dialogue both ways to be able to say, Hey, let's talk it through. It takes both sides.
Evelyn:Yeah, it does. Not to just like shut
Kristin:doors. And, and it's hard. I don't know if you're familiar with Terrell and Fiona Gibbons. love them. Fiona
Evelyn:has an accent, so I will always listen to her no matter what she
Kristin:says. When I read her book, All Things New, I I can't remember. I think it was in that one. I don't think it was in the Christ Who Heals, but I think it was in that book. We had had COVID. We'd had like church at home. We, you know, we're able to kind of do everything at our house. And I loved that. Low key loved that. I loved being able to pick what time of day we did church. I loved being able to decide that we could do church in our pajamas because in our faith, people don't come in. There's, you know, slubby stuff, like. You're going to dress up and, and look more presentable. And I would, I guess. And so I was feeling like, why did I have to go to church? Why did I need the organization? Like, what was even the point? Can I not just pray with my family and whatever? And I am not prescribing this as an answer for everyone. The answer for me was in reading the book and talking about what the community of Christ was like in the very beginning, when Christ was on the earth. And how there was something so unique about that in the way that the community supported each other, and they showed up and women were valued in a way that they weren't in other places, like just this whole community and also the way that you practice being Christ like by being with people that were not always easy to love. And that if we just isolate, like, how are we even becoming Christ? Like if we hide ourselves away, I felt so called out and also really bummed because I really just wanted to stay home. I felt like, no, like I actually have to show up. And I need to go to this ward because I need to be part of that community and I need to do this. And, and I didn't want to say, I'm not saying that you're doing the wrong thing. That was the answer that I received. And I think you can find community in different ways, but it was really a reminder to me that we cannot become our best selves alone. We have to be connected to each other and to learn how to do that in as healthy a way as possible.
Evelyn:Yeah, I think the connection will exist. Whether it's a healthy or unhealthy connection, and hopefully we can make it like a good one.
Kristin:And that means that sometimes we might have to walk away from certain circles. You know, to keep that healthiness if we can, but it also gave me perspective on allowing for other people to make mistakes or to hurt me and not be too quick to cancel culture. I think there's, there's sometimes a fine line between like, obviously if someone is abusing you, you don't have to just be a doormat. I don't think that's kind. That's being nice. It's not being kind. Still can have healthy boundaries. But sometimes we're too quick to cancel people and not giving them space to learn and grow. That's true. And, and give each other grace for that. So if you had a gigantic billboard, it's one of my favorite questions, you know, that anyone in the world is going to see, what message do you think that the world needs?
Evelyn:Just love. Just love.
Kristin:I love that. I love that. It would probably have rainbows on it. It would have rainbows on it. That's awesome. It would be colorful, it would be eye catching, it would be inclusive. Well, if it's going to be
Evelyn:a billboard, it might as well be.
Kristin:Right. Because why not? I absolutely agree with that. And do you have any final thoughts that you'd want to leave our listeners with? Anything we haven't covered that you would want people to know?
Evelyn:Nope, I think we covered a lot of good ground. Now I gotta go take a nap.
Kristin:To process all the, you know, yes. Yeah. Fair enough. Well, enjoy that nap. It sounds fantastic. I won't actually
Evelyn:get to take one, but it's a metaphorical nap, you know.
Kristin:Okay. It's hard, hard to go without those naps. So, well, anyway, I so appreciate you being here and talking vulnerably and being able, I don't, I don't know that we can solve the world's problems, but I think that it's been a good reminder that it's just that vulnerability, kindness, curiosity. Connection and being able to listen without judgment really solves so many of the issues in our relationships with one another. I
Evelyn:think really all any of us want are to like be seen, to be seen for who we are. So
Kristin:we loved how we are. I agree with that. Thanks, Evelyn. I
Outro Music
Kristin:So thank you for listening and I hope that you had some great takeaways about how we can stay in relationship and in community, even if it needs to evolve and change a little bit, especially because maybe we have built our friendship on so much of what goes on in this faith community and how we can be more welcoming and understanding and loving when that's maybe a subject matter. That isn't the best to talk about for a while, or that we need to talk about it differently and be open to listening to other people's experiences. So I'm really grateful for Evelyn's time here and I wanted to tell you a little bit more about her generous authorities in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. twice a year. Instead of going to church at our regular church buildings, most of us stay home and we watch what's called General Conference on TV because it's broadcast now. When I was a little girl, you had to go to the church and it was like a special broadcast thing there, but now you can just get it at home, which is fantastic because we all know that I love church in pajamas. But General Conference is a time where the leaders of the church are going to give us messages. And I love General Conference, but for someone who is coming through a faith transition out of the LDS Church, there are things that are going to tend to be more triggering. And, you know, honestly, even people who are faithful attending members, we're not always going to hear messages that resonate with us. That is reality and I love that this sweet way that Evelyn, who has parts of general conference that she has loved, but also has had parts of That just hit in a very hurtful way. She has devised her own generous authorities that she hosts the weekend of General Conference where she invites good humans within her space to give positive and uplifting messages about all kinds of things. But they're all good. They're all positive. They're all uplifting. This isn't a place for her to have like a hate space and be anti whatever's going on with General Conference. This is just a separate safe space and the messages that were shared at the last conference were sweet they were good. They were awesome messages. So I wanted to time this episode to come out close enough to when General Conference would be happening. So if you want to go follow Evelyn on Facebook, you could maybe see some of those generous authority essays that will be upcoming. and benefit from those messages. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being part of the Solidarity Sister community. We needed you.